Sid: We want everyone everywhere to be red hot for the Messiah, but there are things that stopping you.  There’s things that are stopping you from receiving the healing of God, there are things that are stopping you from receiving the peace of God.  Theres people listening to me your blood pressure is elevated, you have diabetes, you can’t sleep at night, you’re fearful that you’re going to be penniless and be homeless shortly.  You’re family is falling apart, what if you could pass up every problem, not as an ostrich, but because you’re walking in such supernatural peace and do that consistently and walk 24-7 in the peace of God?  Could you see what a difference that would make in your life?  My guest Larry Hutton was taught step by step by the Lord Himself on how to do this and since 1977 he’s been able to walk that way.  Now Larry, tell me about why you say worry is perverted imagination?

Larry: Well the Lord showed me that when we worry we’re taking an imagination that was given by Him.  For example, when you’re a kid you imagine, what do you imagine when you’re a kid?  Most kids where their imagination is still right, their imaging that they can fly, their imaging they can just breathe under water, they are imaging these wonderful…

Sid: Oh, they’re Peter Pan, their flying.

Larry: Their imagination is just always positive and thinking great and wonderful things.  And then worry all it is is you imagining something bad; you’re imagining something and the thing about worry is worry always dwells with the unknown.  And when we talk worry you’re talking stress too, because stress and worry are all forms of fear.  And so when you’re worried about something you are worrying about the unknown.  Well, my child hadn’t gotten home yet maybe they had gotten in a accident, worry, worry, worry.  You know what, the end of the month we may not have enough money, it’s always dwelling on the unknown.

Sid: This symptom I see in my body might be cancer.

Larry: There you go, yeah, you’re worried about something that you don’t know and so you’re imagination has been perverted, you are now dwelling on something, you’re dwelling on the wrong thing instead of the right thing.  God’s word is truth, that’s what we’re supposed to be dwelling on.

Sid: So when you dwell on the right thing God makes it happen, when you dwell on the wrong thing could you say the devil makes it happen?

Larry: That’s a good thing because you definitely got him behind the works of darkness so that’s absolutely a good statement Sid.

Sid: Let me ask you something that you bring up that not many people think about and that is worry, stress, fear, it’s really rooted in pride.  It’s really rooted on putting yourself on the throne not trusting God, explain.

Larry: Well the Lord told me, He said, “Larry when you allow worry to come into your life; or you allow depression or any of those negative emotions, He said what your doing is in essence taking me off the throne of your life and your putting yourself up there.  You’re trying to handle it yourself, that is pride.”  And of course He took me over to Peter where it says, “Humble yourself by casting your care.”  So I found out you what?  If I allow that to stay then I’m just telling the Lord, “Lord, I’ll handle this one without You, I’ll go ahead and worry about it I’ll go ahead and get depressed about it.”  Even though you’re not actually saying that, that is in essence what you’re doing when you don’t’ allow the Lord to just take care of that and not be stressed and not be worried about it.  But you can’t do it on your own, we talked about that earlier in the week, you have to use this supernatural peace that He put on the inside of you that is the grace that empowers you and empowers me to actually overcome.

Sid: Speaking of the pride and I do say pride with quotes “of worry” tell me about this pastor’s daughter that was a generational chronic worrier.

Larry: Oh, she was raised in a denomination, she was taught that you know, there’s going to be people in the family that are worriers and you just happen to be one so just accept your lot in life.  And she said she was that way for, I can’t remember I would have to pull the testimony out, it seems like it was twenty-four or thirty-four years and I’m thinking wow that’s a long time.  She just worry and she worried herself sick and just depressed and all this stuff and even her family members were telling her it is just because you have a gift and God’s made you concerned about people.  And she finally got a hold of my teaching and learned that God gave her His peace and that she didn’t have to be this way and it changed her life!  She was so ecstatic she was so thrilled that she said “I do not have to be this way anymore.”  And for now on my generation, my children and my children’s children they’re not going to have be that way because they are going to learn the truth of God’s word.

Sid: Do many people that get a hold of your teaching that suffer from sleep deprivation or insomnia have changes?

Larry: Yeah, that’s real good, I’m glad you brought that up because we had a number of instances, even while I’m preaching on this subject all of a sudden the Lord will begin ministering to me.  In fact I feel like there’s some that’s listening right now that you’ve had sleep disorders, in fact I can see one that you’ve been on different types of medication, the doctors have been trying different types of medication and God says that you can actually lay down in peace.  In Psalm 4:8 you can lay down in peace, you don’t have to eat the bread of sorrows, you don’t have to stay awake and have all kinds of things bothering your emotions.  You can actually lay down in peace and your sleep can be sweet according to Proverb 3:24.  And so I just lease that to you right now as your listening, that the peace of God that passes your understanding will garrison your heart and mind in Christ Jesus.  But yes Sid, we have we’ve had many people that have gotten a hold of this and wow, I don’t have to be kept awake at night because of worry or stress or anger or something.  I don’t have to wake up early in the morning and not be able to go back to sleep because of these negative emotions that I can use God’s peace and I can sleep like a log, not like a baby, like a log.

Sid: What actually happens to someone when they worry all the time?

Larry: You know, worry opens up the door for all kinds of problems in the physical body; it opens up the door for problems in their finances and their marriage.  It opens up so many different doors because worry, because when you stop and think about it, worry is sin.  I mean God said in Roman’s 14:23 “Whatever is not of faith is sin.”  Well, I can’t worry in faith, I can’t worry, I can’t use my faith to worry so if I’m worried then that mean I’m not truly believing that God’s going to take care of it.  And that positions me then in a place where I’m not hearing from God, I open up the door for these symptoms of sickness and diseases to come in.  It’s just not a place where God wants me, He want me worry free.  And like you said and let me just reiterate for those that are listening, Sid’s telling you the truth, I have not had a down day, a depressed day, a stressed day a strife filled day since 1977.  I’ve had moments because all of us face the moments, but it’s what you do when that moment whether it becomes longer than a moment, and you could use God’s peace to keep it short and sweet and lightful.

Sid: And now you teach on a Greek word that means cares, tell me briefly because I thought that was revolutionary.

Larry: Well the Lord showed me that the Greek word that were suppose the cast our cares comes from a root word that means, divided.  In fact it’s used when Jesus said a house that’s divided against itself cannot stand.  Well whenever we allow worries to come in and depression and stress and fears and it divides us from God, it divides us from people.  Of course we know division is not good we’re supposed to be whole in unity and harmony with God; and so I saw that it was just a trick of the enemy and a work of the devil to try to get us all messed up and divided.  It kind of, it’s a picture of even division in yourself that you’re you know you’re just messed up.  You’re thinking one way one moment, thinking another moment instead of being in this peace that God wants us to operate in.

Sid: This division now when I was reading this says the Greek word actually means to cut into pieces.

Larry: I know, isn’t that amazing.  It’s like…

Sid: No wonder people are not above and their beneath if their all cut in pieces.

Larry: And how many times do you and I hear people Sid, “Oh I’m just torn apart and I just feel like I’m cut in pieces,” and they don’t even realize that they are saying the very thing that the word meant in the Greek language.  It’s because their all torn up in the inside and their all messed up because they’ve allowed that depression and that fear and stress to remain.  And yet they don’t have to Sid, we don’t have to have it in our lives.

Sid: I’m feeling such a peace of God … I mean no worry no fear, no problems with your temper or your emotions and stress and strife and on and on.  Could you imagine living 24-7 in that kind of peace?  I can imagine that.  I can imagine that that’s going to be the thing that’s going to divide this world between the true believers and the phony believers.

Larry: Yes.

Sid: My guest Ruth Fazal is a violinist and there is something about the violin if the person playing the violin is a strong believer and has been under the anointing of God for years it comes out.  But a lot of other things are happening when people hear your music.  There are things happening to you, tell me about the time you were translated to Jerusalem.

Ruth: Well, there was one time that I was away on tour and I was in my hotel room and I suddenly found myself praying, but I was praying against the wall of the hotel room and I couldn’t get myself away from it.  And I just kind of had my head glued to the wall, but I realized, but I’m not at the wall of my hotel room I’m in Jerusalem.  At this point I hadn’t ever been there and so it was such, it was such a strong sense and I couldn’t leave I couldn’t come away from it and it was such a connection.  So I mean that was was an amazing time.

Sid: How about when you were translated to Hebron, that’s the place that Abraham was buried.

Ruth: Yeah, oh gosh that was actually one of these Glory nights at my home, and there was something that kind of opened up in the room.  Well, I knew well enough now that okay, something opens up I go as a child and I do it.  And I started walking and it was like down a pathway.  And now, I’ve never been to the Tomb of the Patriarchs in Hebron, but I know that that’s where Abraham and Sarah and that’s where Isaac is buried.  And you know I, something burning very much on my heart in these days is the Father Heart of God for the healing between the brothers Ishmael and Isaac.  And it’s really, it’s really strong in me and I know that that’s the next thing that God is doing in me and that He’s going to come.  Something is going to come out of this.  But any way on this occasion I’m walking down this path in the Spirit and I see the Father at the far end of the path and I see these two men walking towards him.  And I know that one is Isaac and one is Ishmael.  And I see them walking together, well their not walking together, but their walking toward the Father.  And at the point where they reach Him He embraces them and I don’t know if your familiar with that beautiful painting of Rembrandt of the prodigal son, it’s that sort or the sense of the Father embracing, but he’s embracing the two of them together.  It was so powerful and I knew at that time the Lord was saying, “One day you are going there to the Tomb of the Patriarchs and you are going to play that.  It’s almost like a playing it into being; and I don’t know when the Lord going to open up, I’m hoping it’s going to be really soon.

Sid: Well, you literally prophesy when you play your violin, do you realize that?

Ruth: Yes, yes I know that.

Sid: You’re prophesying over people, just as if you were to speak in unknown supernatural languages, you don’t know what you’re doing, but you’re prophesying in tongues with the violin.  That’s what I believe.

Ruth: Yeah, I believe that too, and I also realize that, I mean I’ve played also in places like I’ve stood on the tracks in Auschwitz and I’ve played.  And I know that there is a sense in which God, you know that he transcends time and so it’s like I’ve often thought of the image of like you know like a tree trunk, when you cut a tree trunk you see all the rings of the tree?

Sid: Right.

Ruth: And it’s like the Lord can come and He can put His finger on one of those rings and He can bring healing; it is like in our lives.  And so I think it is the same for a nation.  It’s the same for a people and so you know I feel at sometimes when the Lord takes me with the violin He says, okay I want you to stand on this ring right here and play.

Sid: Let’s do that right now from your “Songs from the River CD,” let’s hear “Dawn.”  CD Excerpt. That was from “Songs of the River” by Ruth Fazal.  And Ruth, I’m doing people a disservice because sitting under that music changes you.  It makes you more, I call it, “Heavenly Music” it makes you more Heavenly minded…I wish everyone would sit under this music.  Now you have an amazing burden for the Jew in Israel, obviously came from God.  Tell me about how that happened.

Ruth: Well, I think what happened was, my prayer has always been, “God, give me your heart.” You know, I wrote a song about it so I shouldn’t be surprised when God answers the cry of my heart when I say, “Give me your heart, Lord.”  And so what happened was somebody gave me a book of poetry from the Holocaust and from the concentration Camp of Terezin.  And He asked me to take some of the poems of the children that had died in the Holocaust and put them together with portions of the Hebrew Scriptures and just portray His heart in the midst of the suffering.  I hadn’t a clue what He was asking, this turned out to be huge it turned out to be life changing.  I didn’t, I’ve never turned back, but I found it at the end of two and a half years of writing this piece and going so deep into it that the Lord had literally, I don’t know how else to describe it, but that he had inserted the people into my heart.

Sid: Now, you call your piece, Oratorical Terezin which you have literally had concerts in Israel and in Europe and even in Carnegie Hall.  What reaction do you get?

Ruth: Well, always a jumping to their feet at the end.  The piece ends on an incredible note of hope and that’s I think what people are responding to.  Everywhere we’ve done it we’ve always given tickets, free tickets to Holocaust Survivors.  And like for instance the premier performance in Tel Aviv was on Yom Hashoah and the Lord planned that one.

Sid: The Day of Remembrance.

Ruth: Yeah, yeah and there were probably about 6 or 700 survivors of the Holocaust amongst the 3,000 people in the audience.  And it was just amazing because you know it’s like hope begins to rise in their hearts.

Sid: Now so many Holocaust survivors gave up on God because of what they went through.  Do you see any change in their heart when they listen to your music?

Ruth: Yeah, I think so.  I mean the thing that I feel with the Oratorio is that it’s a question to them that says, will you reconsider the goodness of God?  And certainly those that have been there, those that I have met, I remember one woman coming to me after the first performance in Toronto.  Actually a survivor of Terezin at the end of Auschwitz and she just came up to me and she said, “How did you know.”  And I just looked at her and I said, “Well, I don’t, I don’t know, but God does.”  And it was just, I mean I knew all the time that I was writing this that there was no way, I had no background in this, I really had no right to even address the subject.  But I knew that I had to go into God’s heart.  And so I think hope is the word that just comes and the willingness to even just consider again that God did not abandon his people.

Sid: Now, how did God change you when you went into His heart concerning the Jew in Israel?

Ruth: I don’t know, all I know is that it’s so undeniably strong that it’s like these people are my people.

Sid: Listen, I believe the dividing line of the true church and the phony church will be a proper understanding of the Jew in Israel in these last days.

Sid: I heard a word from God when I was interviewing Nasir Siddiki yesterday and I did not state it, so I repent because I told God I would say it, but any time I heard something, but the anointing.   Nassir when you explained how you had a condition that you were dying of as a Moslem that did not know the Messiah, and you had a visitation of the Messiah, the anointing got so strong that I heard a word.  I heard, in fact you were talking about, do you remember you were talking about the pain, how unbearable the pain was from this condition; the right side of your face and body was totally disfigured.  You had golf ball size blisters, your skin was a red as fire and I’m sure you don’t even want to think about how excruciating the pain was at that moment and when you said that, I heard the Holy Spirit say “There is someone listening to us that has a pain in their neck and their back because the Spirit of God is dealing with pain right now.”  And I believe that if anyone were to move their neck that had pain; if any one were to bend their back over they would walk right into their healing in Yeshua’s Name, in Jesus Name.  Now that I took care of my public repentance Nasir, you were very successful in business, you became a millionaire by age thirty-five; you had over a $1,000,000, you married to the woman that you worked with, Anita everything was storybook.  You went on quite a honeymoon, a two month honeymoon?

Nasir: Ha-ha-ha, yes.  I had been working for many, many years and so this was kind of making up for everything.

Sid: But the following year, the bottom fell out, what happened?

Nasir: Well, two things happened.  Number one the economy went down, and number two the company got bought out and all of a sudden from being at the very very top I ended up being at the very bottom.  We lost everything, we lost our home, we lost our cars, we lost our money.

Sid:  But wait a second, you knew the Lord.

Nasir: Yes.

Sid: Did you think about leaving about leaving the Lord, did you think maybe you made a huge mistake?  What did you think when the bottom fell out, I mean most people are great Christians when things are going good, but when things go bad, we find out what’s really going on inside of them.

Nasir: Well, here’s what happened, when I first gave my life to Christ I got hungry for the word and so I literally devoured the Bible.  I read it from cover to cover and I would constantly be in the word.

Sid: I’ve heard your teaching, and you are a word man!

Nasir: Amen, so when this thing happened I knew immediately that it was not God trying to teach me something, but we really do have an enemy called the devil and he is there to steal, kill and to destroy.  So the only anchor I had was Jesus and I would not let go of my anchor; I would not let go of standing on the word.

Sid: I have noticed, ha-ha that you have a very very tenacious faith.  But as a matter of fact if you didn’t I’m not so sure you would have had the results with your wife Anita.  So not only did the bottom fall out on you financially but your wife became pregnant which was fine, but it was at the peak of your difficulties.  Then it got compounded, what happened?

Nasir: She collapsed outside of the mall and started to have what was called catatonic seizures or grandma seizures and finally she lost her eye sight on her right eye.  Her hands twisted up on the right side, here feet twisted up and she became paralyzed.  They took her to St. Michael’s Hospital in Toronto, they put twenty-eight needles in her head, diagnosed multiple sclerosis.  Said, “That she would be a cripple for the rest of her life.  They gave me the wheelchair and the catheter there is no cure for MS and absolutely nothing we can do to help her.

Sid: Paint me a picture of what she was like in her worst physical shape.

Nasir: She was paralyzed in bed, could not move, blind, needed help all the time and slowly loosing the rest of her organs.

Sid: Oh, my goodness, and you’ve got, you don’t have any money.

Nasir: Yes.

Sid: How, and she’s pregnant?  Oh my goodness.  How did you cope?

Nasir: We had no choice but to trust in the Lord, the only thing we had was a little bit of money for Christmas presents for our two sons, so what we did was we took that money and we bought some teaching, healing, material.  In those days it was cassettes, today their CDs, because the most important thing was that my wife had to come out of this.  And we played that twenty-four hours a day.  Sid, I did not know much about the scriptures but I knew one scripture well, “Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.”  So for twenty-four hours a day, seven days week tenacity is the Word…

Sid: Okay, did you ever have the thought, “My wife will be like this forever and then die blind, paralyzed?”

Nasir: Yes, I had that thought not once but many many times, and just as much as she had to listen to the Word I had to listen to the Word because I had to get to the point where whatever the doctor’s said, whatever were the circumstances were factual but God’s word is higher than the circumstances.  His Word is higher than what the doctor’s are saying, and until I got to that point where I believed God’s Word even more than I believed what I saw.  Until we got to that point nothing would change, and as she listened to the word, twenty-four hours a day seven days a week, I couldn’t put medicine in her because there was no medicine, there was no cure.  All I could do was put the Word in her and the Bible calls the Word medicine to your flesh.

Sid: Well, this is interesting, you had almost an immediate physical healing, your wife’s was gradual so you’re actually learning about how the word becomes flesh.  And how long did it take for her to manifest her healing?

Nasir: It was a two year period and what was good was when we speak the word, but it’s even better when it speaks to us. Then when that word explodes on the inside of us that we know that we know, that we know that 2,000 years ago Jesus carried multiple sclerosis, you carried cancer and every single sickness and every disease and when that explodes on the inside of us all of a sudden we realize why are we carrying something that Jesus already took on our behalf.  And over a two year period she started to get a little bit better and a little bit better and a little bit better and finally over two years every symptom of multiple sclerosis disappeared.  Her eyesight came back; her feeling on the right side of her body came back.  Her hands and her feet were completely healed.  And she was totally, completely restored.

Sid: What about that little baby, she was pregnant?

Nasir: That baby came out when she was going through this, the baby was doing fine and the funny thing is this after she got healed the doctor said, “MS is going to be with you for the rest of your life, you can never get pregnant again.”  Jesus said, “Get pregnant, show them that I have healed you.”  Well, she got pregnant and that baby is about to turn sixteen years old.

Sid: Now, you know what happened to you by hearing the word 24 x 7; you were forced to because your wife had to.

Nasir: Yes.

Sid: So both of you were learning, your faith developed.  Did you reach a point where you were sure she had been healed?

Nasir: Yes, the healing manifest not when we see the pain go away, that’s not when we receive our healing.  We receive our healing when we actually believe the word and release our faith.  Now we can no longer be moved by what we see now, we either have that anointing in us and everyday it is causing us to be restored.

Sid: Okay, you have six CD’s that we’re making available this week called “How to Receive and How to Keep Your Healing.”   What type of feedback do you get when people go through a seminar you teach or listen to these six CD’s?

Nasir: First of all they realize that Jesus already took their sickness.  Number two they realize how to appropriate their healing, and then number three they realize not only how to get healed but stayed healed.  We’ve had tremendous number of testimonies coming in.

Sid: You and I have discussed that in like the Kathryn Kulman Ministry and many other ministries today lots of people get healed, but for some reason as time goes by they lose their healing.  And I don’t hear anyone teaching on not only are you suppose to be healed but you’re not suppose to lose your healing.

Nasir:  That’s right.

Sid: In fact percentage wise numbers of people lose their healing.  In your opinion can anyone that has repented of their sins and walking with the Lord be healed today of anything?

Nasir:  Yes, the Bible clearly says that Jesus carried every sickness and every disease and the word every means He did not leave one out.  So yes, we can definitely get healed and the anointing heals people.

Sid: You know I’m reminded of a young man that many years ago he came to my office and he said, “God healed my eye sight, I don’t need glasses anymore.”  And then a few days later he came to my office and he said, “I need glasses, what happened?”  I didn’t have an answer for him.

Sid: I tell you the rain is falling right now on Jewish people and Jewish people are ready to receive the Lord, their just waiting for you.  I have on the telephone a man that God has been dealing with for a number of yea rs, John Finn; who has had three visitations from the Lord to show how we can literally recapture what the first Christians had.  What the first literally Jewish believer’s in Jesus had, recapture in a way that many people aren’t looking for.  Now John Finn, I really believe that, I have to tell you that when I first heard what the Lord told you, my brain went almost tilt for just a split second because I’ve been looking for the return of the miracles to win the unsaved.  But the Lord is taking you in another direction, which probably will result in more miracles then going just for the miracles.  Do you agree?

John: Ha-ha, I do now I do believe that miracles and healings are the dinner bell call to salvation.  There is no doubt that the signs and the wonders are what perk peoples ears and get their attention.  But it’s also true, that the New Testament teaches that the discipleship comes through Sons and Daughters, not just anointed meetings.  And that’s the heart and the jest at what He was saying that February of 2001 when he said, this move is not a move of the masses it’s a move of the individual and as it was in the beginning so it must be now I’m moving in relationships.  And that started me on a quest that whole rest of the year and then finally I found myself in Edmonton, Alberta Canada once again in November of 2001 and I was ministering in a church.  Let me tell you Sid, this was a cool church, it was an older church building with kind of a white stucco, but it had seen it’s better days, the wood work was worn the stucco had some cracks and holes in it and it was in kind of a red light district of Edmonton.  And I found out in talking to the pastor before the service that they minister to a lot of people from off the street, ex-cons, people with drug problems and such, but I was schedule to speak that Sunday evening and again in the middle of the worship service I saw Jesus come from about where the Worship Team was playing, six or seven steps over to me and this time the power was turned up.  My strength left me; the Pastor next to me immediately fell to His knees and then face down on the floor.  As Jesus came walking over to me He said this, “I love these kinds of people, and that was enough to blow my mind right there because I’m looking around and I know these people came in off the street.  But what He meant by that is that there are no facades, they are real and genuine people and He loves to meet them where they are at.  And my strength left me, I feel to my knees and later, three of our Bible School said, Jesus walked right by them afterwards, they saw Him as well.  But He came over to me and He said, “You’ve learned much from your study of the Word and the people that I have brought across your path the last few months; He said, I want you to start a house church and a House Church network; and I want you to structure it in such a way to facilitate the development of House Churches around the world.  And I asked Him why?  I had the opportunity in this visitation and I asked Him why he wanted me to do it.  It is against the time to come, in other words it’s a resource against the time to come you know.  And is what we see happening right now, the Body of Christ moving outside the traditional; meeting people that Jesus loves, where they live.  Whether it be the person off the street or just out of jail, that’s what He delights in and in fact later that night in the prayer line I was laying hands on a young woman.  I found out later that she was twenty-two years old and I so a mini-vision as I prayed and I saw her dressing a mannequin in a department store window.  And I saw her, you know in that display case fixing up the whole display case.  And I had to prophecy to her because I heard the Father speaking so I just said, “Father God is speaking to you” and this is what He’s saying,” and He just shared his heart about how He gifted her with artistic talents and that He was giving her the ability to put thing together and to make things and to create things and make things beautiful for people to see.  And she just started crying, and started crying and after I shared all of that I asked her “Well, was this accurate?”  And she said, “I just got out of prison for eighteen months for dealing drugs.”  And she said, “I just enrolled in a two year school that would teach me interior design and I just got a job in a store, and I’ve been working on a display case for the display window.”  That is the Lord Jesus’ heart, that is the Father’s heart right there and that’s what we are talking about.  No more spectator, no more church where it’s a spectator sport where people just sit facing all the same direction, facing you know listening to one anointed person.  This is a move of Jesus meeting people where they are at.  Matthew 25 says that when He comes back, the way He’s going to separate the sheep from the goats is this.  I was sick, you visited me, I was in prison you visited me, I was naked, you clothed me, I was thirsty and hungry and you feed me and gave me some to drink.  It is on a very practical level and you can only do that through based out of a home, based out of families, based out of relationships are work, based out of neighborhoods.  And that’s where the Lord is moving and exploding all over the world today and there are so many miracles and so many people raised from the dead.  Sid, do you know that there are over fifty-two nations right now that have been documented to have people raised from the dead from Christians.

Sid: I was not aware of that.

John: In fact I talked to a brother, I don’t have documentation but he says that it’s now over 70 nations have been documented to have people raised from the dead by Christians.

Sid: Let me take you back to something that the Lord said to you.  You need to start these house churches because of what’s going to come.  What is going to come?

John: Where to start?  You know, one of the things that He told me, and let me just take you to this to 2005, when I was contemplating the changes that happened in the previous ten years from 1995 to 2005, in fact I was just driving down the road and I was saying and I would saying 1995; the Clinton Administration.  The 9/11 happened and here we were in 2005 and in war and I don’t even recognize my country for what it was ten years ago.  And He said, “If you think that you don’t recognize it now, truly I tell you, truly I’m telling you the truth, you won’t recognize it in another ten years.”  And some of the things that He’s talked about when the previous election, the Bush – Kerry elections there was a different feel to it in the spirit.  And I prayed and I was asking Him what that feel was and He said this, “It’s a spirit of socialism, and it can be delayed, but it won’t be stopped.”    And I said, “Where does it come from?”  And He said, “It comes from Europe,” and he says “There are those in America who want America to be European style nation.”  And you know all of that entails, Sid are difficulties for Christians in the traditional format.  What we see around the world, in times past when we say “Yes, look at the growth of Chinese House Churches you know, 130 to 200,000,000 Chinese all in house churches.  But look at the persecution they have and we excuse, we write off home based churches because we think it’s just for times of persecution.  But I’m telling you, when the Lord said that to me in November of ’01 and He said, I want you to do this as a research against a time to come, well you know that’s enough to get you thinking and I think that people sense now that something has changed in our world.  And that’s why so many people are leaving the church.  Not because they don’t like the church, and I am the first to acknowledge and bless and bless the traditional structure but millions upon millions of people are saying, “I want more, I want more.”

Sid: But you know millions of people are feeling that but they don’t see an option.

John: And that’s very true and the thing is that home based churches are under the radar of the traditional church.  It’s kind of like going to a particular news network; you are not going to get the news from a certain point of view if all you do is hear that one channel.   And it’s similar to that because within the context of the traditional, I think we said yesterday, that a lot of pastors think that revival to them means they are going to have to add an additional service on Sunday.  Or that more people are going to come to their church and they don’t realize that God doesn’t need their structure.  For the first 300 years Christianity started out in the homes, but the first home church if you will was Adam and Eve and the Lord in the Garden and He’s always had that structure.  He’s always moved first from the home and the family and the relationships in the community; and that’s what He’s doing in the world today.  Yeah, the Word and the Spirit do agree.

Sid: You know I’m reminded Jesus was asked what was the foremost the most important commandments and he said the, Schamah.  Which is to “Love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul and all your strength and to love your neighbor as yourself.  It seems to me that a church that’s more like an extension of the family in the home there’s more likelihood for that to occur than a mega church.

John: Well, and that’s again if you look in the new testament it talks about the older men teaching the younger and the older women teaching the younger.  It even mentions the older Moms you know in the New Testament Paul told Timothy to let the older Moms teach the new moms what it’s like to be a Mom.  Well, you can’t do that in a program; that is only done through relationships.  I remember when our first born, our first born was not sleeping through the night and we didn’t know why and my wife went to a mother of four that we knew and she came over and she said, her name was Jeanne and she said, “Show me what you do, show me how you put the baby to sleep.  She came over in the evening and Barb got out first born son, he’s six months old ready for bed and everything.  The first thing she said is that he’s cold; he’s waking up because he’s cold.  Well you know what, we put some more blankets on him and that solved the problem.   But she would never, she couldn’t have gotten that through a program; it’s only through the relationships and that’s the richness of it.  Accountability comes through relationships.  Sometimes people will say, yes but what about accountability?  And I’m telling you accountability comes through the richness of the relationships that you have with others.

Sid: Well, a lot of people think that if you’re not a member of an organized church then you don’t have accountability, but the truth of the matter is most Pastors don’t even know the names of all the members of their church there so large. Whoop, our time is up.

Sid: If you’ve been listening to my guest this week, John Fenn I believe that the Holy Spirit is just bubbling within you because he had several visitations from Jesus about what is going to happen in the future, about what’s going to happen to our economy and how there will be, and what’s going to happen to our government.  And we will have only one option, but to go back to the way the church was originally and he had three visitations in particular.  The first one, he was showing what would happen in the future and that literally given a history lesson of what normally happens a move of God’s Spirit, everyone’s excited, everyone get’s charged up then they start churches and then they start Bible Schools and then they fossilize and then God has to have another move of God’s Spirit.  And then in the second move of God’s visitation that He had, the Lord started talking to him about what the first church was like and it was relationship based not program based, family based, not mega church based.  And then the third visitation He told you where he was headed with you was house churches.  Tell me about that third visitation.

John: Well, I had actually concluded about three weeks before and told my wife, I said, “You know I really don’t want to pastor a church again, but if I ever did I would do it like Paul did, because the whole of the New Testament was written to people sitting in Living Rooms in home based churches.  And I kind of let that slid and then November 4^th of 2001 at Edmonton, Alberta comes Jesus right in the middle of the worship.  And one of the things that He said to me as He came over was that, “I want you to be a resource, that you can facilitate the development of house churches around the world.”  And I was kind of taken about when He said, “I want you to start a house church network.”  And I would not say flippantly, but I was so surprised and I said, “Well, do you have a name for it?”  And I almost said it like that, and when you are in the Spirit like that what you really have in your heart comes out and so it sounds putrid, I’m horrified that I said that to the Lord, but that’s how it came out because I was so surprised.  And He just shot back right away, He said, “The Church without Walls International.”  Now what is interesting is if you goggle Church Without Walls you’ll get over a million hits.  It’s like calling a church, Grace or something like that.  But for me and for what he wanted for me that’s The Church without Walls International” and that’s as being out of Tulsa.  But then He laid hands on me, and He said, “You’ve been doing the work of an apostle but now I’m laying hands on you ordaining you as an apostle for this task.”  And He gave me further instructions that we could start; you know gather people together and start and He would regulate the growth of it to grow by the quality of the relationships.  And that’s really where our heart has been.  We really don’t want to grow for growth sake, we want to grow as we get to know one another, as we network together; and it’s what we’re doing all around the world today.  We have people traveling back and forth getting to know each other and that’s very rich and very relationship rich and very supernatural in the miracles that we see as well.

Sid: Well, I would like to go there right now, I mean you’re telling me things that provoke me to so much jealousy, you’re telling me in these little house churches you have such supernatural phenomena coming in as the glory cloud.  Tell me what occurs when that happens?

John: Well, you know part of it I want to preface it by saying this Sid. When you are realizing that you are doing things the way the New Testament actually describes it, that is knowing that from Matthew through to Revelation these letters went out to people sitting in living rooms and you can actually understand it within that context.  There’s an anointing, there is a confidence, and there’s an endorsement in the Spirit when you are doing things the exact same way that Paul and James and John did things.  And so it’s not unusual, we’ve had many times, not only in our home core church in Tulsa, but in our affiliates around this nation and in Europe and elsewhere and I get the same reports.  For instance, we’ll begin in worship and there’s several people’s eyes are opened up into the Spirit realm and see a white shinny cloud almost like a fog or a midst, the glory cloud that settles upon us and when that happens, and this has happened several times, nobody wants to talk, nobody wants to speak, it’s like the Lord is speaking so individually and so personally to everyone that no one wants to break that silence.  And it’s almost like a download often times where things are just dropped into us and I’ve had people tell me this.  Do you remember two or three weeks ago when we had the glory cloud there, I realized that something was put in me that I just became aware of last night when I was praying; it’s that sort of experience.  But because if you are on the outside and you say, “Awe. I want to experience that and you’re thinking that’s in a traditional church or program or we had a service like that one time.”  I’m telling people that you’re free to do this in your living room at anytime; God will meet you right there you have to think of it in terms of its normal for God to meet us when six to twenty people get together in a living room and seek Him.

Sid: Now, there’s other phenomena that will occur when sometimes every bit of stress leaves everyone; tell me about that.

John: Another thing we found, not only again in Tulsa but I’ve heard it in our Billings, Montana affiliate and elsewhere, and that is what can only be described as a rushing mighty wind that peoples ears are opened up in the spirit realm.  And again we’ve had meetings with ten or twelve people and we had a half a dozen of them see the same thing and that is like a spiritual tornado spinning around.  We’ve had it different times where it’s been a fire and other times when it’s been like a glory cloud spinning around.  One time in particular that stands out where it started in the middle of the room because in the house church we are kind of sitting around in a circle in the livingroom and as we continued to worship the Lord and just stay in His presence that swirling and the rushing sound in our ears grew until that wind, that Devine wind was actually blowing across everybody.  And you could feel it just literally pick up the stress and pick up the worry and the care right out of you and just like pull it out of you.  And it’s just some of the most amazing amazing things happen and again, there’s so many supernatural things that happen so great of a presence of the Lord that we consider this to be normal Christianity.

Sid: Well, one thing I’ve noticed this is the second time that I’ve interviewed you and every time I’ve interviewed you the presence of God is so tangible and I have to believe that this is what occurs in your house meetings.

John: That’s right and there’s something to say too Sid that house church is not a miniature of what we left.  House is not a miniature of what we left, if people are just meeting together and it’s just us four and no more.

Sid: And you have one leader and it’s like a mini-church in most house groups.

John: That’s right then you are not doing a house church.  House church is not based on the house and saying we’re going to have church in it.  It has to be the dynamic as presented in the New Testament which is participatory in nature rather than dictatorial, rather than one…

Sid: But don’t you find that we have so been conditioned to have a one man show that we sit back passively even if we were to come to one of your house church meetings; we’ve been trained not to participate.

John: And there are transition times, there are certainly a transition time where people have to adjust there thinking in so many different areas.  Sometimes it’s just a real step of faith just to go to somebody’s house that they don’t know or that they’re invited by a friend.  But what happens is that it’s so natural and it’s so relaxed and often times afterwards there’s food involved and you get to know one another.

Sid: Oh, that’s where the Jewish side comes in always, we always have food.

John: Well, there’s often times that’s where a lot of the real ministry takes place because you’ll see a couple people grab a plate of food and then go head off in the corner of the living room. And that’s where somebody feels lead to open up about a situation in their lives and that’s where they pray and that’s where they talk it out and that’s where the real discipleship really happens is over food.  And I think that that’s very biblical, very Jewish.  But it’s a supernatural element, that’s what I really want to communicate is that it’s more than people getting together and say we’re going to have church in the house.

Sid: You know even when you say this to me I still am trying to grasp it that the Lord wants with a passion relationship Christianity; speak a little bit about that.

John: Well, it’s not, and what happens in relationship Christianity, think about that.  How does, when the New Testament says for the Father’s to raise up the sons and the older women the younger women and discipleship through sons and daughters rather than just anointed meetings.  What happens is this those who know get an opportunity to bring someone alongside and show them how to do whatever they need to do in this walk through life together.  But then there comes a point where the person that knows how to do it steps back and watches their little friend, their son or daughter in the faith do it on their own.  And that’s the nature of the relationship based elements of it where leadership; my job as an apostle, my job as a leader is to train other leader to lay down the need to always talk to always be in charge.  It is the giving away of the church to the people; it is the empowerment of the people.  That’s where the relationship start, when they realize that you’re a person just like me, yet you know how to walk in the things of the Spirit.  So many times one of the greatest joys in my heart is to watch a person prophecy for the first time or lay hands on a person and watch a person be healed for the first time.  For the realization to come that you know what we are all equal in Christ, the same Jesus lives in each of us and it’s merely our gifts function differently; but that’s all the difference is.  We are all equal, me as an apostle is equal to someone who is a servant whose joy is to set up the chairs in a circle and vacuum the floor before people come.  We are all equal, and when people realize that its servant based and humility based leadership and that our job is to empower the people.

Sid: You know, one of the things that has been troubling me for a long time is the person that has a business card and at the end of their name it says apostle or at the end of their name it says, prophet.  It’s almost like they have to advertise who they are.

John: Don’t get me started on that brother, ha-ha-ha.  You know it’s Jesus said it this way in Mark chapter 10 verses 42 to 46 he said, you know the gentiles in leadership lord their authority and so others serve them.  He said, “It shall not be so among you, if you want to be the greatest leader then become the greatest servant.”

Sid: Our time has slipped away.