Sid: My guest is red hot for the Messiah his name is Dr. Michael Brown. He’s a Jewish believer in Jesus, and when I say he’s on fire for the Lord, he is on fire for the Lord. He is also president of the Fire School of Ministry in Concord, North Carolina right outside of Charlotte, North Carolina. He is a Semitic language scholar; he has PhD in near eastern languages and literatures from New York University. Recently we conducted a debate between one of the best known traditional rabbis in America, Rabbi Shmuley Boteach. I have a list of his credentials and it would take the whole show just to read all of these credentials. The debate was “Who is Jesus?” It was absolutely high adventure; very few Christians have ever heard rabbinic arguments. I know that my wife watched the debate and she was so excited. Now there was one question that she didn’t quite get, and it had to do… we were discussing Mike Brown about the need for blood sacrifices. The rabbis said “No” and his example was Noah. Would you comment on that?
Michael: Well the traditional Jewish position would be that blood sacrifices have value and they’re important, but God’s primary way of dealing with the human race has been through repentance. I believe he uses an example of the people of Jonah was one example. When Jonah went to preach to the people of Nineveh that they repented and God accepted their repentance and there was no sacrifices offered etcetera. If you look at someone that would have lived before the temple was established, Shmuley’s point would have been “How are they righteous? They weren’t righteous through blood sacrifices, they were righteous through repentance.” My argument of course is “Yes repentance has always been foundational, but that God also requires a penalty for sin and that His way of pointing to the Messiah and how the innocent would suffer for the guilty was to send His Son in a prefigured way.” How so in the animal sacrifice system? So the sacrificial system of Israel, which was a massively important part of the Torah, was constantly prefiguring substitution, substitution; innocent for the guilty, the requirement of blood. Shmuley of course would argue that the blood sacrifice were for unintentional sins primarily, and most of them were, but there were specific sacrifices for guilty sins where you knew it and it was intentional. There was specific sacrifices offered on the Day of Atonement that covered the entire guilt of the entire nation. So blood sacrifices played an important role, traditional Judaism of course has emphasized with the absence of the temple, and the absence of sacrifices “No we don’t need those we have repentance, we have prayer, we have charity and that’s sufficient although one day it will be great to have the temple standing with the sacrifices offered again, but it’s not necessary in the meantime.” Of course there answers for each of these objections, but that’s a standard one “We don’t need the blood” is a big Jewish objection.
Sid: Of course that’s one of the major issues of the entire scriptures because without the shedding of blood there is NO atonement for sin. In this debate to help our listeners really understand this tell me what is traditional Judaism today? What is rabbinic Judaism today and how close is it to the scriptures?
Michael: Okay. Traditional Judaism is based on the Bible plus rabbinic traditions. The simplest way to say it, one scholar put it like this “The Catholic religion is no more the religion of the New Testament, than traditional Judaism is the religion of the Old Testament.” Meaning if you talk to a Catholic and say “Why do you do this, and this, and this…” they have some scripture support, but then they say “This is done by the authority of the church.” If you’re a Catholic you believe that has been passed on through each generation, and that the Pope carries the same authority as Peter. Well the same way if you’re a traditional Jew, you believe yes God gave us the scriptures, but the scriptures as given are unintelligible. In other words, it says “Don’t work on the Sabbath if you work on the Sabbath you’ll be put to death,” but it doesn’t explain in detail what it means to work, and so with other commandments. They believe, traditional Jews believe, on Mt. Sinai God gave Moses an oral law to explain the written law. That oral law was then passed on to Joshua, from Joshua to the eldest, the eldest to the prophets, on and on, till you get to the days of Jesus. Then like Hillel and Shammai, and even then Gamaliel under whom Paul studied, and the authors of the Mishnah and the Talmud, and the Jewish law coach through the ages. The belief is the way that you understand what is written is by going to the rabbis, and the rabbis have a chain of tradition some of which is written, some of which is passed down orally that explains what the scriptures mean. On the one hand, there is much of the Bible in traditional Judaism, for example a religious Jew is reading through the 5 Books of Moses, the Torah, every year in the synagogues. A religious Jew is praying the Psalms and other portions of scripture in daily prayer 2 or 3 times a day. But most of what a religious Jew does is not found directly in scripture in terms of what he says when he gets up in the morning, how he prays, wearing a head covering, wearing other types of garments, the extensions of the dietary laws, etcetera… Some of these traditions actually contradict the spirit or the life of the word, a traditional Jew would say “That’s not the case,” but we can see clearly in the gospels that when Jesus had conflicts with the religious leaders it was generally over the traditions; some of those traditions Jesus said “You make void the word of God with your traditions” in Mark 7 and Matthew 15. So there’s certain things traditional Jews do in terms of keeping the Sabbath, and the Biblical calendar, and they’re more zealous for that than anyone in the world. On the hand, what they have done is added so many traditions and human commands, and if you don’t do it THAT WAY you’re considered not be a true follower of scripture.
Sid: Does God accept traditional Judaism as justification to go to heaven?
Michael: Oh no! God doesn’t accept any human system as traditional justification to go to heaven.
Sid: So it’s actually diabolical in that sense because they think they’re okay.
Michael: Any support we have aside from falling into God’s hands and asking for mercy through the Messiah is a false support. No matter how beautiful, no matter how filled with wisdom, no matter how powerful the traditions, no matter how much good is there, ultimately any other system that gets us from trusting in Yeshua alone for salvation. I’m not saying we don’t need to repent, I’m not saying we don’t need to live holy lives, but I’m saying if the basis of our confidence is our religion, or our tradition, or our lifestyle, or our good works we will find ourselves terribly short on the day we stand before the Lord.
Sid: Alright, let me put the question this way, is traditional Judaism the religion of Moses and the prophets?
Michael: Absolutely not, without question, absolutely not.
Sid: Where did they deviate?
Michael: Historically the deviation seems to grow from a couple of hundred years before Yeshua, as the Pharisees began to rise up. In many ways an excellent movement striving for purity, but in other ways, once they began to develop their traditions, and once they began to say “If you do not follow our traditions you are not right with God.” That’s when the problems began to arise. Look I could tell a Jewish person, but I do keep the Sabbath, and they could say “If you don’t keep it according to our tradition you’re not keeping it.” I could “But I follow what is written literally in the Bible” and they could say “If you don’t follow our tradition you’re not right with God.” The dividing line comes when Yeshua comes into the world that’s where the decision has to go “Will we go with the fulfilling of the prophets and the miraculous, and the voice of God revealed through the Messiah the last and greatest national prophet to Israel? Or will we follow our traditions?” To the extent human traditions are followed to that extent you ultimately hit a dead end and you miss God.
Sid: Okay, if you had one shot a Jewish rabbi and could say one statement to him to get him to think what would it be?
Michael: One statement I would probably urge him to study the scriptures and to recognize the Messiah was supposed to come before the second temple was destroyed. The second temple was destroyed over 1900 years ago in the year 70 of this era. There is a clear prophetic witness pointing towards it in Haggai 2, and Malachi 3, and Daniel 9 when you weave those strands together. There’s even rabbinic tradition that indicates the Messiah was expected roughly 1800 years ago. In other words, a long time ago something should have happened and the scriptures indicating He was expected before the second temple was destroyed. What happened? The Talmudic tradition says He should have come 1800 years ago, but because of our sins we’ve missed it. I say He did come 2000 years ago as the prophets said He would, and because of our sins we missed Him. Therefore, we need to repent and turn back. God has kept His timetable faithfully without skipping a beat. God has laid out in scripture that the Messiah would first be rejected and misunderstood by the nation, and be a light to the Gentiles before He would be received by His people. Who else has done that? We began our debate with Shmuley making the point very well, he’s a tremendous speaker, and made the point very well that Jesus has brought the knowledge of God to hundreds of millions of people. [Laughing] He’s a Jew! If I said which Jew has brought knowledge of the God of Israel to hundreds of millions of people you’d say “Well it’s this Jew Jesus.” Who’s a better candidate for the Messiah than Him? Who else came and lived and died 2000 years ago, not to mention resurrection…
Sid: Listen I thought he was setting you up for both debates.
SID: In 1906, one of the greatest revivals the world has ever known in America. It was called the Azusa Street Revival. And there was a young man and he was in trouble. He was an alcoholic. He was a drug addict. He was homeless and some women from the Azusa Street Revival felt sorry for him, led him to the Lord, set him free. And these were elderly people that actually were part of the Azusa Street Revival, and they told Tommy, your job is to tell the next generation when the greatest move of God’s spirit to ever hit Planet Earth just before Jesus comes, to tell these stories. Tommy, why did they want you to tell these stories?
TOMMY: Because they believed the anointing was going to set forth a revival. When I tell these stories now, Sid, things start happening. People start getting healed and people start getting ministries themselves, supernaturally, especially when I pray of prayer of impartation on them.
SID: I’m going to have Tommy do that in a little while. But Tommy, tell me about William Seymour, who started the revival.
TOMMY: Seymour was the son of a slave. He wasn’t that awful educated. But listen, he said when the anointing came on him he started preaching, saying words so everybody couldn’t understand him, but he was so intelligent. Had an anointing on him all the time and he was obedient. I don’t know that a pastor could get away with this today, but he had set on a pew and put a box on his head.
SID: What kind of box?
TOMMY: A wooden box.
SID: Why did he do that?
TOMMY: He said God told him to. And sometimes he’d set there for 10 minutes, and he’d sit there for over an hour.
SID: While all the people were there? How would you like to be, have a wooden box over your head and you sit there praying in supernatural language for an hour while the congregation is just sitting there. Now when he’d take the box off, what would happen?
TOMMY: He would always get up and then everybody would sit down and start listening. A lot of times, he’d just walk around and tell, he’d say, “Charles,” he’s talking to Brother Sines, “play this tune.” And when Charles Sines started playing the tune, he said he wouldn’t be long. And he said, “Brother Tommy, I would just sit back and watch my finger play.” And the people in audience said it sounded like a thousand pianos playing. And he said he was sitting and looking at the people and said, “Now start singing in tongues.” When he sang in the Spirit that meant tongues. When he started singing in tongues, that Shekinah Glory that lingered would start rising and it would fill the whole building. And then a flame would shoot up out of the roof, a big flame, and the fire department got called many times.
SID: It was real.
SID: All right. It would shoot out of the roof. But you told me another flame, a bolt of lightning almost would come from Heaven. Explain that.
TOMMY: Well it would shoot up about 50 feet, they said. And then about 50 feet from that a ball of fire would appear and flames would start shooting down and go through the flames that were coming up.
SID: What were these flames? What was the point of this?
TOMMY: Well I know I had a Jewish rabbi explain to me that there are flaming angels that knew each other in the Bible. This is known. He said those angels, that the flames that were shooting down were angels bringing miracles to Azusa Street and the ones going up were going back to get more miracles. And that’s, during that time, flames, when the great miracles would happen—
SID: They had wonderful creative miracles. It’s going to be hard for you to believe. Tell me about the man that had an artificial arm.
TOMMY: He had had his, even his shoulder blade ripped out at a job. Back then they didn’t have the benefits they have now. He had an artificial arm hanging on it, but it was starting to really give him trouble. And Seymour said, “Well, you’ll need to take the artificial arm off.” And he looked up and he says, “You all want to have some fun like we did about a year ago when the man’s leg grew out?” He says, “We’re going to.” And he laid his hands on his shoulder. Brother Garcia looked down and said, “Brother Tommy, I can look down into that hole in his shoulder and see the bone.” He said he started praying for it, he said, all of a sudden the bone started growing out about four inches. The flesh growing around it. And he said, it took only seconds. For him, it was slow motion. And he watched it as it just grew it. And he said as he watched it, the fingernails appeared all of a sudden.
SID: You know, if that would happen for me, I’d put a wooden box on your head, on my head. Would you do it? I know you would. We’ll be right back. I can’t wait for him to pray for this impartation for you.
Sid: I have my friend on the phone Rabbi Jonathan Cahn he’s the spiritual leader of Beth Israel Messianic Jewish Congregation in Garfield, New Jersey. He recently gave a prophetic teaching message for the Messianic Jewish Alliance of America called “Harbinger.” The word harbinger means “Warnings.” It is not a coincidence that I am interviewing him this week, it is not a coincidence that this evening begins Rosh Hashanah, the Feast of Trumpets; a time to soul search and repent because judgment day, Yom Kippur, is coming. Let’s hear the shofar blast. [Sound of shofar]. These are serious times that we are living in, we know about the tragedy of 911; we know about the tragedy of Katrina, but do we know what triggered 911? Do we know what triggered hurricane Katrina? I believe there are some answers and I believe God speaks to us through His prophets. On my radio broadcast on July 8, 2005 I had a new covenant prophet on by the name of John Mark Pool. I want you to hear exactly what he said on July 8th about the hurricane that would occur on August 29, 2005.
Excerpt with John Mark Pool
Sid: On your webpage you talk about the things that you see for this year. I just got back speaking at the church you attend and I stopped over in New Orleans and I could not believe what I saw in the streets of New Orleans. I didn’t get saved until I was 30 years of age, and I’ve seen gay people it’s not like I’ve been living a sheltered life my whole life. I have never seen gay bars where the people are lined up outside and just… I mean Sodom and Gomorrah could not be worse than what I witnessed with my very eyes. What did God tell you about New Orleans Mark?
John Mark Pool: As I was in the top of the Banquin building, the highest building in New Orleans by an invitation. I looked over the city in all directions, and often times the Lord will do this like in a bright middle of the day, there was kind of like an open vision. I looked down and I no longer saw the streets with traffic I just saw, I would say what looked like 20 foot of water all under me all over the city with refuge just floating about. Much like what we saw in the pictures of the aftermath of the tsunami.
Sid: With these judgments that everyone can see there’s a ray of hope. This ray of hope is God is pouring out His Spirit on Israel, God is pouring out Spirit on Jewish people. I heard reports that for the very first time in modern Israel’s history Israelis, native born Israelis, are starting to come to the Lord. Friends of mine who have Messianic Jewish congregations in Israel are telling me at least every week a new Jewish person is coming to believe that Jesus is the Messiah. I went there to investigate, but I went more than to investigate. I believe that God showed me a strategy to reach Israel. It’s a different strategy than has ever been done in modern Israel’s history, but it’s closer to the Bible than any other strategy; it’s not apologetics; it’s not wonderful arguments, if wonderful arguments would reach Jewish people with the Gospel then every Jewish person in the world would be a believer. The Bible says “The Jew requires a sign.” What I did was I rented 2 secular auditoriums and one was actually a disco. We advertised in the newspaper, in flyers, and we invited people to a lecture on the supernatural. We stated that many people would be physically healed that would attend. We filled up 2 building, so many Israelis made professions of faith, first time professions of faith. As a matter of fact, we had over 50 Israelis, this is unprecedented, in modern Israel’s history. Fifty Israeli’s made first time professions of faith, there were many more, but there were 50 that identified themselves. Unprecedented, then I went to Berlin, Germany. I went to Berlin on September 3rd and we rented a secular auditorium, we ran newspaper ads, and we decided to even do it bigger. The newspaper ads and the flyers said “Lecture on the supernatural” then it described the fact that I’m a Jewish person and that when I speak, and I’m an expert in the supernatural, and when I speak people get healed. Well the auditorium was packed. I mean when I got there I did this whole thing by faith, and there could 5 people there. It was packed with Russian Jews! You say “How are Russian Jews in Berlin, Germany?” Over the last 14 years over 200 thousand Russian Jews have immigrated to Germany. The auditorium was packed, why? Because Jews are so interested in the supernatural and if we won’t show them the supernatural of God the devil isn’t shy. It was packed with Jewish people that are into the New Age, into the occult. They were coming for a demonstration of the supernatural and I shared basically my testimony which involves coming from a traditional Jewish background being involved in the New Age and the occult before I became a believer in Jesus. I gave my full testimony, and I tell you what normally when I speak words of knowledge come throughout my talk and people are always healed, but no words of knowledge came. Talk about being nervous Jonathan… here I’ve advertised that there are going to be miracles and it’s 2 minutes before the close and there’s no miracles then all of a sudden words of knowledge came forth. People came forward actually came on the stage and said they were instantly healed by the power of God. Then I said “Those that want to know God” I didn’t say “Those that want to become a Christian,” I didn’t say “Those that want to become a Messianic Jew,” I said “Those that want to know God there is only one way, the way I have come to know God and if you want to know Him, I want you to stand up right now and say this prayer with me.” I would have to say 99% of the people stood up and made a profession of faith. Then I said “If you’ve never said a prayer like this before I want you to come forward.” We’re talking about close to 500 people, and I would say at least half or more of the people then came forward to say “I’ve never said a prayer like this before” and I gave them a copy of my book “They Thought for Themselves” of 10 Jewish testimonies. By the way, in a few days I’ll be heading to Israel again for Sukkot, the Feast of Tabernacles, I’m going to have a tent out by the Sea of Galilee, and they’re expecting 20 to 30 thousand Israelis to attend a New Age festival and I’ll have platform and a microphone, and I’ll be able to publically share the gospel. Let’s put this into perspective. Why are all these Jewish people coming to the Lord right now? Why is God pouring out His Spirit on Jewish people? Because Joel chapter 2 that you’re familiar with, the 28th all the way to the 32nd verse, talks about an outpouring of God’s Spirit on Jewish people. It started at Pentecost, but the greater outpouring is happening right now because it says in Joel that at the time the nations divide up the land of Israel, and will face judgment over that there will be a major outpouring of God’s Spirit on Jewish people. People are being healed as I’m speaking right now, someone’s neck was just healed. The prophet Amos also says in the 9th chapter when you see this great outpouring of God’s Spirit on the tabernacle of David, the tabernacle of David in the Hebrew means the house or family of David. When you see Jewish people come to the Lord you will see the greatest Gentile revival in history. Now it’s not an accident that I just got back from Germany where they had the wall in Berlin that’s separated the nation down the middle. Because right now there is a wall between Jews and Christians, and Jesus came to break down the wall between Jews and Gentiles and it’s about ready to happen now! The reason I have you on the telephone Jonathan is you gave… this is Rosh Hashanah beginning this evening, and Yom Kippur is coming up. You gave a message for the Messianic Jewish Alliance that I heard such amazing reports of. It was so prophetic I believe the word God has given you is a must for us to hear right now! There is a certain pattern having to do with Israel and God’s judgment. I believe if we can understand that pattern we can see what is about ready to happen to the United States.
Jonathan: That’s correct we are in a very critical time. It is appropriate that this should be at the Feast of Trumpets. Because the trumpet is a sound of warning, a sound of wakeup because the day of meeting God is near. This message is really coming through the body… I don’t know if you’ve sensed it, but there’s a lot of words about the watchman. The watchman would stand on the wall with a trumpet and when he saw the danger coming he would sound that shofar. That shofar is a wakeup call, and God is giving a wakeup call to America. We’re at a very critical point and there are very key patterns in the Bible that reveal the beginning of judgment, the exact steps of it and signs that are given. In 911, September 11th, there were several key signs…
Sid: I tell you what hold that thought. We’ll pick up right here on tomorrow’s broadcast.
Sid: Now if you’ve been listening to me for any time you know that I’ve been on a spiritual quest to understand as much as I can about how Bible believers can walk in Divine health. How those that are sick can be healed. Most people say it’s a mystery, but I believe that God has something better for His better for His children than a mystery. And that’s why I interview people that I feel are the cutting edge of understanding how we can reach out into that invisible realm and draw that physical healing, or that body part, or whatever our need is into us in the visible realm. Now my guest has been a guest several times on Messianic Vision is Henry Wright. I’ve been out to his congregation Pleasant Valley Church in Thomaston, Georgia. I’ve been to his seminars and he has found that for every disease known to man there are roots. He has through experience found many of the spiritual roots of disease and he has found that when these roots are destroyed it’s easy for a person to manifest they’re healing. Henry you told me that you have some new things going on in reference to cancer healings; tell me about that.
Henry: Well, we’ve as you know we’ve been researching cancer and the pathways of cancer for a number of years and we’ve had a fair amount of success. The newest insight we’ve had in the past few months that’s been confirmed by doctors in Taiwan and Denver, Colorado. As they began to look into their case histories is that in the area of breast cancer we’ve been able to determine that which breast it is, right breast or left breast is indicative of the pathway behind that disease called breast cancer.
Sid: Tell me what you’ve found out.
Henry: Well we found out that in not only does this apply to breast cancer and there are exceptions this profile accounts for probably 80% of all breast cancer. This profile is also accurate concerning breast cyst and also to some degree ovarian cysts. If the tumor or cancer appears in the left breast of the female it is indicative to us of unresolved bitterness and conflict and issues between that woman and another female usually a blood relative. That would begin with a mother, a sister biological sister, or a blood line aunt. If the cyst of the tumors appear in the right breast it is indicative of unresolved bitterness and conflict and resentment and issues between that female who gets the cancer, or cyst, in the right breast and a non-blood relative beginning with the mother in law, a woman in the workplace or a woman in the church. And this is astounding because when people come to us with these diagnosis’ we begin to inquire as to their relationship with other females and boy it certainly there.
Sid: Now give me a testimony of someone that came to you with cancer and you went after the root and they got healed.
Henry: One cancer case was well documented recently in a book by Dr. Neil Anderson coauthor with Michael Jacobson in a book called “Biblical Guide to Alternative Medicine” which has been out for two or three years. But in chapter 20 of this book on the chapter on the chapter entitled “Mind and Body Medicine” there is story of a pastor’s wife in Cincinnati, Ohio. I’ll just read quickly this paragraph and that will save a lot of time by me paraphrasing because this is a direct quote from this book. “If you were to ask her Candace would say that this most powerful physical healing agent available is not a drug. It is a sound healthy spiritual heart and mind. As a 50 year old pastor’s wife Candace was given a devastating diagnosis of metastatic breast cancer. By the time it was discovered the disease had already spread throughout her entire body and she was given only a few months to live, she was stage 4 terminal. In response to her diagnosis she and her husband sought the counsel of a Georgia pastor, who you’re talking to now Sid. Whose ministry orientation is in identifying spiritual factors in the cause of disease. During our conversation Candace became aware of the possibility that bitterness towards another woman had weakened her immune system and made her more vulnerable to cancer. Shortly thereafter, she sought forgiveness and was reconciled in her relationship with a woman from whom she had been estranged. This has been over 7 years ago as of this writing her cancer has spontaneously regressed despite the fact that she has never changed her diet, has never had surgery, has not taken any medications, she still has no symptoms and feels great.” Now this is a story of a pastor’s wife in Cincinnati, Ohio who was stage 4. The cancer had metastasized to her entire body; when she dealt with one issue and lined up with God He heard her confession, He saw her make peace with this other woman and the Kingdom of God was available instantly. This is a powerful testimony because when she called me Sid I didn’t pray for her, I actually was wasting my time by praying for her. By the way she’s a pastor’s wife, she had received prayer so many times; what do you think my prayer would do anything more. No.
Sid: But your whole statement begs the question this is a pastor’s wife, she’s got deadly cancer, you would think she would know that she has to forgive everyone of everything. Why wouldn’t she know this? I mean when you’re up against it you don’t want anything in the way of your healing.
Henry: Well, that’s easy to say you know we know truth Sid. The Bible says “To be a doer of the Word not a hearer only.” I would say most people know how God thinks especially if they’re believers at all they know how God thinks; they know. We know that we’re supposed to forgive people of their issues against us. But it doesn’t mean that we do because we’re just people and we forget what the Bible says about what we should do. So because she’s a pastor’s wife doesn’t mean she’s any different than any other person who struggles with feeling and emotions and things that come when somebody doesn’t like you or they’ve injured you.
Sid: And you know if this was one case we would say praise God, but you’re seeing this as over and over again these patterns. Tell me again another quick testimony.
Henry: Well, again I’ll give you another cancer case where a woman who had cancer of the uterus and this is a case where I didn’t pray for her nobody prayed for her. She simply lined up with how God thinks. This is a lady in Florida who is a Real Estate Broker who was dying of Stage 3 uterine cancer terminal. She was a Real Estate Agent, and she was in a closing one day with a Real Estate Property she was sharing her battle for her life with the other Real Estate Broker and he said “I can’t help you but I do have a booklet here that will tell you to help yourself.” It was one of the teachings that we have here in Be In Health at Pleasant Valley Church we have new insights into cancer. And as she read the little booklet which is not more than a syllabus of the entire teaching she saw the connection between forgiveness and disease and cancer. That was on Wednesday, as she read the booklet that evening, she read it twice. The next morning on Thursday her ex-son-in-law because there had been a divorce and she was the mother-in-law in this case her son-in-law came to drop the grandson off as he usually did Thursday mornings, but in this case instead of avoiding him she ran to the front driveway, she embraced him, she told him she was sorry for hating him. And they made their peace crying together in the driveway, they made their peace together and forgave each other. That was on Thursday. Friday she was due in a hospital in Florida for chemo much to the surprise of her oncologist and her radiologist they found the tumor that had been in her uterus had disappeared. And what had happened in this particular case as she did the word of God made peace with her son-in-law the invisible great God that we serve plucked that cancer entirely out of her uterus and she is well today. I met her personally at a conference I did at a Crown Plaza Hotel at Orlando, Florida last year.
Sid: You know Mispochah I’m speaking to Henry Wright and he has a manual that every person should have. It’s called “A More Excellent Way” subtitled “Be in Health Spiritual Roots of Disease Pathways to Wholeness.” And there are different causes for different diseases. Henry just very briefly I’ve got to take you back; you’re a pastor in a church and you knew all about physical healing because your own mother was healed of cancer. But in a very miraculous fashion but you weren’t seeing many healings at that time. How did you get from that stage to a point now to where you’re going all over the world and showing people the keys to get their healing?
Henry: Well, Sid it’s kind of difficult when you start to pray for people and they don’t get healed. I mean I read them the Jewish scriptures and Psalm 103 “He’s the Lord that forgives us of all of our iniquities and heals us of all of our diseases.” And I got stuck with a big problem, it was the word A-L-L and I realized that you know God forgives sin, but Jesus said this in His discussion. Which is easier to say, “You’re sins be forgiven or pick up your bed and walk.” And I don’t know I suppose it’s easier to be forgiven in people minds today than to be cured of disease. So that’s in men’s minds. But the word of God is true and so I got stuck with a problem Sid. The word of God said one thing and I wasn’t getting even close to what that word all represented.
Sid: You know Henry will pick up on that subject tomorrow.
Sid: I recently heard a sermon on evangelism and it was a wonderful sermon and the pastor was from the deepest part of his heart was saying that “We got to tell people about Jesus.” And I wanted to get up there and shake that pastor and say “Amen brother, but it’s not the apologetics that are going to win those lukewarm people who think their Christian’s that are not; or those who are from another religion. It’s the way Jesus did it; it’s by signs and wonders.” My understanding of the New Testament is the least believer walked in such awesome power that today the Catholic Church would make them saints. And of course the Bible says “We’re all saints.” But the truth of the matter is every one of us is destined to walk in that power; why? To see a miracle? No, no, no, no, no, to see the miracle. What is the miracle? People’s lives being transformed from the kingdom of darkness and translated to the Kingdom of the Son of His love; that’s the greatest miracle. But it takes an intervention of a living God in the miraculous to grab the undivided attention of the nonbeliever to make them open to proclaim the gospel and get them saved. It’s that simple; and that’s why I’ve been so looking forward to my interview with Michael Hinson. If you have been listening this past week I interviewed his associate Joan Hunter, whose the daughter of Charles and Francis Hunter. Both of them coauthored this book which you should have written for already but if you haven’t this week I’ll be offering the book. It’s brand new it’s called “How to Heal the Whole-man” it’s a handbook with the most supernatural prayers for body soul and spirit and I have Michael Hinson on the telephone. I’m speaking to him at his office in Gainesville, Florida. Michael I’m looking at your background and this is a pretty interesting background that you had you’re just basically minding your own business and you go to a Happy Hunter’s meeting 25 years ago and you hear an audible voice from God; tell me about it.
Michael: Well, I actually was drugged to the meeting by a zealous roommate who was on fire for God and was drugged to the meeting. I didn’t want to go there I had heard all sorts of things about healing meetings and was taught by my mainline denomination that it wasn’t necessarily of God. But I did go hoping to find, see maybe somebody healed and that way it would enhance my belief. I was hoping to see something that made God tangible and real. Because all I’d done is heard about him and hadn’t seen Him.
Sid: You know most Christians are in that boat, most Christians that are good church going Christians they don’t see miracles; demonstration of power, they hear about it, it’s history not reality.
Michael: And that’s exactly what happened to me, I was drugged to the meeting actually fought it the whole way and there encountered God in a way that I’d never seen Him before. Not just with the miracles, but Jesus became real in every part of my life. Actually energized who I was and I no longer started living for myself. So it was a dramatic change that took place in my life. And I didn’t just see God move in me, I watched Him move and there was 10,000 people in the meeting, there wasn’t anybody that wasn’t dramatically changed there from 25 years ago from Lakeland, Florida.
Sid: But tell me about that audible voice.
Michael: Well, I was at the meeting I didn’t know very much about God and I was at the meeting and I was actually the meeting was over and I was with my friend who drugged me to the meeting. I turned to him and said “Were going to be headed up to Jacksonville healing explosion and God’s going to send us to Denver and he’s going to take care of it.” And my friend looked at me with big eyes and he said “What are you talking about?” I said “I just heard that and I don’t even know why I said it out loud.” And he started laughing at me; the meeting went on and it was over on a Saturday night. And Charles Hunter came out of the crowd of 10,000 and he came up to me and he said “Are you from Jacksonville?” And I said “Yes I am.” And he said that “We prayed and found out that we prayed and heard that you were going to head up to Jacksonville Healing Explosion.” And my response was “Charles I don’t know anything Healing Explosions, but I did hear from the Lord and I’m your man. And he turned and said “See you in Denver” and turned and walked away. About five minutes later as my friends jaw was on the table and mine was as well because I’d never experienced anything like this a woman who saw us at the conference came up to and said “The Lord told me that you were supposed to go to Denver, are you planning to go to Denver?” And I said “Well, I am now because I heard the same thing.” And she handed me a check; back then it was enough to pay for 20 airfares to Denver and she said “The Lord told me to give you this to take care of you and launch you in what He’s called you to do.” I went to Denver to learn from Charles and Frances how to set up the Healing Explosion and…
Sid: Did they realize that you were barely saved?
Michael: Absolutely they saw what God had done to me at Lakeland. I had been saved technically for a day or two and already started leading people to the Lord. I had to let them know about the experience of what had taken place in my life and they saw me lead other people to the Lord. I didn’t even know what I was saying, but I was telling them about my life experience and they wanted that and they came on. I didn’t know enough scriptures to be saved according to a lot of people I didn’t know the Roman Road at the time. I was just telling them about a life with Jesus and what had happened to me and they wanted that, and I lead them in a prayer and they started coming to the Lord. Charles took me under his wing and I literally became a son for 3 ½ years I lived with him. He raised me from a pup is the term I use and taught me the things of God and just launched me from that point on.
Sid: Now something, and you didn’t know this, but there was one thing in all these amazing things that God has used you in over the years but there was one thing that really hit me and it hit me hard. If there’s one reason I really wanted to interview you is for the next thing that I’m going to ask you. Because I believe it’s a key to your life and a key to many people that are listening and this happened about 10 years ago. God spoke to you for a three day period and showed you your heart. Tell me about that.
Michael: This is something I don’t talk about very often so this is the first time I’ve ever done it publicly other than in a few services.
Sid: But let me tell you a story then before you tell me about that. I was recently ministering in a church near the Pennsylvania New York border and the Pastor said “I had been a Pastor for many years and one day God came into my room and He said ‘I want to show you your heart.’” Now this was not just a carnal Pastor this was a Pastor that loved God and when he saw his heart he begged God to say “Stop it I can’t look at my heart any more it was so evil.”
Michael: Well, that is what happened to me. I was Pastoring at the time and serving God; I believed I was living for the Lord. I was dedicating my life to the Lord I guess I was serving Him every way that I could possibly knew how to do it. I mean I woke up in the morning eating and breather Him and going to bed at night. He came and He did come it was Jesus that came for 3 days, and in 3 days as much as a man could stand it at one time and there were many times I just cried out for mercy he showed me my heart in comparison to His.
Sid: See that’s the problem we compare our heart to other people, but that’s not how God looks at it.
Michael: When he showed me my heart it was more than I could bear. I can openly say and have said in the meetings before at the end of that I can’t tell you how incredibly intense this was and how crushing this was, and how small I was in comparison to what I was standing next to as far as His heart and His love and his capacity for people. My self-centeredness, my own heart condemned me before Him. If He had said Mike you need to go into the lake of fire I would have considered it merciful as opposed to continuing to be in His presence with the sin and with my own wickedness that pervaded my heart all these years and I haven’t had an idea that I was living for myself and not for Him: I didn’t know. When He showed it to me it gave me the opportunity to repent. From that day on I’ve been able to see God in absolutely everything everywhere.
Sid: Question, I think I know the answer but question why did God choose to show you your heart and not someone else?
Michael: I was crying out to Him every day for that.
Sid: Exactly what were you crying out for?
Michael: I was crying out for God to show me my own heart after reading the Psalms and understanding….
Sid: You didn’t know what you were asking for did you? (Laughing)
Michael: Absolutely not a clue and to show me my heart and maybe give me a pat on the back or a slight course direction. I had absolutely no idea that I was going to see what I saw; I am so thankful now that I did but it was 3 days if I could avoid ever going through again I would, but I would get everything that I own to go through them if it’s needed.
Sid: And what would you say if someone that says to you “Well, most people have a good heart?”
Michael: That’s a simple belief system; if people believe they have a good heart, but when you compare your heart to the heart that’s spoken about in the Bible; when you compare your heart to what Jesus said “A heart for Him really is.” When you get the opportunity to see the difference then there really is no comparison.
Sid: And from what I know after this happened to you people not even knowing it recognized the difference, miracles started breaking out. Tell me basically what people are saying that are reading this brand new book by you and Joan Hunter “How to Heal the Whole Man Handbook.”
Michael: We get responses and testimonies every day through the mail and email of people who say “I did not know that there could be this much joy in my life; I did not know that I could be healed this easily; I had absolutely no idea that there was such peace available; I didn’t know.”
Sid: Now I’ve read many books on healing but this truly is unique; what makes it so unique?
Michael: Well one of the things about it is very scripturally based but it deals with the root causes of the illnesses that are involved. It deals with the root issues that’s at the bottom of everything. There is a spiritual issue at the base of everything in our existence and we start at that point and work our way out. And when you get through it you’re absolutely totally free in every way.
Sid: And that’s what the Messiah said “I’ve come to set the captives free” it’s about time as people are free.
Sid: A few weeks ago I interviewed Jennifer Toledo. She has a children’s ministry if you remember; she was the one that was in Africa, and she also was the one that had a real crisis I believe she was 19 years old and she was in love with someone. She was ready to marry him, and the Holy Spirit said “I’ll bless you if you marry him, but he’s not My best choice.” She decided at that young age “I’m going for the gold.” I mean how few young women would do this. She was crushed, but she said “God I love you more than anyone or anything.” Well God honored that faith, and Jennifer is now married to Jonatan Toledo. I have the both of them on the telephone. They are the heads of Global Childrens Movement located in Foley, Alabama. The fruit of their marriage, Jennifer is your little daughter… How old is she?
Jennifer: 5 months.
Sid: Tell me her name it’s a Swahili word?
Jennifer: Her name is Malaika Harvest.
Sid: Now what does Malaika mean?
Jennifer: Malaika is a Swahili word for angel. We just felt like it was prophetically symbolic that we call her, her name actually means angel at harvest. We believe she is a picture of her generation that the Lord is releasing, angels at harvest.
Sid: Jonatan, I think it is so amazing of how you got to the United States. Would you just very briefly tell us where you’re from and how that happened?
Jonatan: Well I am originally from Guatemala, but I was living in Quito, Ecuador in South America with my parents. A good friend now, Shawn Bolz, he went to Ecuador on a trip. Before we met he had a dream the night before about an invitation God was giving me to come to Kansas City. So the next day we met and he brought the word, and I knew it was the Lord. I had peace, even though I didn’t know him at all, or I didn’t know anything about Kansas City at the time; we just knew it was God. So after like 2 months I was able to come to Kansas City.
Sid: So it’s a real miracle that you came to Kansas City, and of course you met Jennifer. Now Jennifer I have to ask you, can you see the wisdom of God at this moment in your life when you were asked to give up that young man at 19?
Jennifer: Oh absolutely. I’m so grateful that I obeyed. You know at that time when you’re walking through it it seems like well “This seems like to be the best thing.” You know our ideas of what we think is best are so much smaller than what God’s best is for us. So I am so grateful that I was able to trust the Lord in that decision because Jonatan has been such a blessing to my life and we’re so happy. It’s so wonderful to know that you’re living in God’s best.
Sid: Okay, the reason I asked Jennifer back and her husband Jonatan, is they had literally a vision, a visitation, Jennifer had of a place in heaven called the Weeping Room. Why do I want you to hear this? Because one of the most important things for you to develop is God’s compassion for the lost; God’s compassion for the hurting; God’s compassion for things beyond yourself, your family, your house, your job, your ministry, and she had an experience that I believe as you hear about you will be pulled into supernatural compassion, God’s heart, God’s compassion. Jennifer tell me how this began.
Jennifer: What happened was a couple of years ago I was in a season of just seeking the Lord and just asking Him to give me His heart, and His perspective on things. While in this time I was just praying and seeking God and I begin to have an encounter. It was much like a vision actually, but what I saw is I just saw myself being taken up to heaven. I was in a spiritual place where I saw what looked like the Father’s house, I don’t know else how to explain it. I just saw all these rooms in the Father’s house, and the Lord began to just escort me room by room and just show me different things. Each room had such meaning and symbolism. I could see different believers that were drawn to different rooms in the Father’s house. I saw some people who just loved to be in the library in the study room, and they’re reading books, and they were just so happy in that place. I saw people who were getting drunk in the wine cellar…
Sid: That’s sort of like at Pentecost where it says they were accused of being drunk because they were so filled with the Holy Spirit and joy.
Jennifer: Exactly. So they were just you know drinking of the Holy Spirit and just losing themselves in that place. All over the house there was just different things that were happening all this activity, but the Lord invited me into the most precious room in the house. This was the intimacy chamber. When I went in I was taken away with just the beauty in that room and just the presence of the Lord. I felt like this is what I was made for, intimacy with God, intimate friendship with God. I just felt so secure in who I was, I felt secure in His love, it was just a beautiful place. As I was just admiring in this vision all the different details in this room and just basking in His love, I noticed something that caught my attention. There’s this beautiful big bed but next to the bed on the floor was a little tiny wooden trap door. Quite honestly when I saw it, I thought “That is very bizarre, that doesn’t fit in this beautiful room. What is it? Where does it lead to?” I just asked the Lord, what is that? Why a little wooden trap door in this great room? He said “Well down that door leads to a very very special place.” I said “My goodness where could this room possibly lead?” He told me “That’s the weeping room.” I thought “The weeping room? That sounds horrible that doesn’t sound at all like a place I’d like to go. Why would you connect a room to this place called ‘The Weeping Room’ to this precious room? He told me “You know that’s where I spend most of my time.” I was just shocked, and I didn’t understand it I didn’t have understanding of what this meant. I said “Lord if that’s where You spend Your time, that’s where I want to go, please take me there.” Before He would take me He said “You know you need to be sure because it’s not like the rest of the house. It’s not glorious, it’s not extravagant, it’s not fun, it’s lonely. It’s low, you have get low even to get in, it’s not comfortable. I just said “Jesus, I want to be where you are. I don’t care what it cost me.” He opened the little trap door He began to walk me down down down this long spiral staircase. We came to tiny little door, and actually I had to get on my knees to fit through the door. When we went in it was a very simple room all that was in there was a little wooden chair and a window. The Lord went and He sat on the chair and He looked out this window. As soon as He did that I had revelation as to why this was called “The Weeping Room.” In that window you could see and you could hear every single cry of injustice coming from the earth all at one time.
Sid: That’s got to be more than someone can bear.
Jennifer: Oh exactly! I couldn’t even take it all in, it was Jesus who was taking it all in. Watching Him take it all in just made fall to pieces in this vision, I mean I just began to weep, I mean in the natural I just cried and cried. He heard every prayer coming from the earth, every child being abused, every woman being raped, every hungry person, every single person crying out on the earth. Jesus saw it all, and He listened to every single thing. He was not silent, He was not turning His face, He watched with great compassion and great love. I was so undone by this King, so beautiful, so kind that He has everything God has everything. He would choose to spend time in this place, He chooses to hear the cries of the poor, the lost, the broken, and I just wept. Of course naturally I just began to weep and weep, for the first time in my life it was like in my head I always knew that God was a compassionate God. For the first time in my life I actually began to feel His compassion. I think we all have a measure of compassion, but I truly began to feel His compassion. Pretty soon it was like I just began to be consumed with the emotions of God. While I was in this place Sid, I saw another little door in this room. I thought “Where could this room possibly lead this is just unbelievable.” So I asked the Lord “What does that door lead to, where does this room go?” He said “That is the strategy room.” When He said that I understood that in that room, although I couldn’t see in there, thee was worldwide strategy for revival, there was strategy for feeding the hungry people in the world, for the cures for diseases like AIDS, there was strategy for peace between nations, I mean everything you could imagine was in that place. There’s a place in heaven with divine strategy and I knew it was the heart of God that His people get into that room.
Sid: Well before we even get to that let me ask you a question. What was going on with Jesus when He was hearing all these horrible things, all these injustices going on throughout the world?
Jennifer: The Lord just sat there and he wept, Jesus wept. He was moved with great compassion. I could just see His face like even though there was millions of voices coming at one time, and scenes being played out all at one time. It was like He saw each one with such intensity, with such compassion He was so aware…
Sid: You know this is consistent with scripture because in Isaiah 63:9 where God is talking about the Jewish people He says “In all their affliction He was afflicted.” I believe, I can speak for myself, and I think I can speak for most of you, we all need more of God’s compassion.
Sid: Now I have been a Jewish believer in the Messiah for over 30 years. I tell you what I witnessed last month in the land of Israel historically was the most significant thing I had seen in my entire walk with the Lord, in over 30 years. I saw biblical prophecy fulfilled.
Before I get to that I want to tell you how God has used me over the past 3 decades. It seems as though I find myself right in the forefront of brand new moves of God’s Spirit, and that’s what happened in Israel. I believe I was walking on such holy ground that I was at the spot where a great great move of God’s Spirit is happening.
Let me take you back when I was a brand new believer in the Messiah. I hadn’t even read the Bible; it was at the beginning of the Charismatic movement. There was an article in a major secular newspaper in Washington D.C.; the headline I can see it today it said “White collar Jesus freaks.” My whole testimony… you see you have to remember back then there was not that many Jewish believers in the Messiah, certainly not that many that were outspoken. On the front page of a major newspaper in Washington D.C. they actually sold more editions of that newspaper than any in their entire history was my testimony.
A woman by the name of Katherine Kuhlman, who had one of the greatest miracle ministries of the century, read the article and booked me to do 2 national television shows. So I sort of became a focal point of Jewish people that believe in Jesus over 30 years ago. That was again before I’d even read the entire New Testament. I knew nothing, but I knew the most important thing I knew that Jesus was real.
Then I remember being involved in a group called the Hebrew Christian Alliance. That later was called the Messianic Jewish Alliance and I was president of the local chapter. We started out having meetings of about 10 or 12 people, in a matter of months we started having meetings of hundreds of people. As a result of this we started one of the first Messianic Jewish Synagogues in modern day history. It was called “Beth Messiah” located in Rockville, Maryland.
Again I knew nothing except the most important thing I knew that Jesus rescued me from an impossible situation. I knew that Jesus was real and I wanted to tell everyone everywhere how grateful I was to Him. Every week Jewish people were coming to the Lord. Then we got organized and the more organized we got, we got a professional rabbi; the more organized we got the better we looked, the better we smelled, the better we tasted, but Israel stopped being saved. It was almost as if when you knew nothing and were entirely dependent on God He showed up. The more organized we got the less of God showed up.
Then a friend of mine by the name of Jonathan Bernis, who you probably know from the Jewish Voice Broadcast, I’ve known him for over 20 years. He said “Sid God is burdening me to go to the former Soviet Union and do big music concerts that will reach unsaved Jewish people.” At that time no one had ever done it and all of his friends that he checked with, especially the leaders in the movement discouraged him. He told me I was the only friend that was really, that was a leader in the movement that was pushing him to do this. So he said “Sid you’ve been in evangelism a lot longer than I have will you go with me on my first trip, and we’ll team up? You’ll evangelize one night, and I’ll evangelize the next night.” We didn’t know what to expect, but it was his event and he invited me to attend and be a guest evangelist. Since I had more experience than him he let me speak on the first night. We witnessed something with our eyes that we had never seen before. We witnessed hundreds if not thousands of Jewish people with tears in their eyes running to the altar to get saved. I mean I’d been in Jewish ministry for so long I never had seen anything like this. So God puts me strategically in places where there’s a major outpouring of God’s Spirit.
By the way, people are being healed right now. I see a spine if you will just bend you will bend right over into your healing. I also see a neck and problems in the back if you have neck ache you are healed in Jesus name. If you have a backache you are healed in Jesus name. There’s even muscles, I don’t quite understand this, but muscles and backs are being healed in Jesus name.
So I have found that God’s kind of thrust me in the forefront when He’s ready to pour His Spirit out. I went to Israel last month I went on Shavuot, otherwise known as Pentecost. Of course, the Jewish Shavuot is different in the date as the Christian Pentecost, but I went for the real thing. I decided, I shouldn’t say I decided, I felt that God told me… you see in Israel most of the believers are fearful to be evangelistic. You say “Oh how could they be that way?” Well it could cost you your job in Israel; it could cost you your apartment; it could cost your children being persecuted. You being persecuted? So it’s easy for me to say “Why aren’t you so evangelistic in Israel?” I guess if I was living there it would not be so easy for me to say.
As a matter of fact, just as I went on the air I received an email from Israel in a section of Israel called Arad from a believer that asked for prayer. Let me read you a few excerpts from this. It says “There was a big demonstration of 3 – 400 religious Jews in front of our place this past Shabbat, this past Friday. We had 15 – 20 believers that gathered for a Friday night meal together. After the Shabbat came, in order to avoid the religious…” in other words they gathered during the Shabbat hoping the religious would not disrupt them. “…but we were threatened and they said ‘They will get us out of Arad even in a coffin.’” I mean how would you like to be having a Shabbat dinner and have someone threaten you like that? “My husband and another believer approached the 2 religious that were there, and these 2 men ran towards them and caught my husband by the hands. It became really physical. Then they came into our meeting, they turned tables over, threw books, coffee, and everything else on the floor. This guy went absolutely wild with his hatred and anger. There was nothing for the other believers to do except call for help. The demonstration that they had outside of our place like all other aggressive demonstrations against believers in Arad are authorized by the local police. They shouted at me the week before in a very loud and aggressive demonstration in front of our house that I’m a dirty Jew. That demonstration started at 7:30 pm, the kids were all in pajamas ready to go to bed. They started screaming and shouting in our blinds ‘Christians out!’” So it’s not so easy to be a believer and live in the land of Israel because the same spirit that was on a Jewish rabbi by the name of Saul of Tarsus who later became Paul the Apostle. Unfortunately, those demonic spirits are still alive and well in the land of Israel. That’s the bad news, wait till I tell you the good news.
When I went to Israel I feel like God gave me a strategy to get in under the radar. What was the strategy? I printed up handbills, or flyers, just small ones I have one in front of me right here in Hebrew and in Russian. The bills read “Sid Roth international author, television investigative reporter, expert on miracles will be in the Kryot,” that’s a suburb of Haifa, “to speak on the subject of miracles and teach you how to perform miracles. Many people are miraculously healed at these meetings. You could be next. Sponsored by It’s Supernatural Television.” Well you know when I got to these meetings I didn’t know if anyone would show up. We rented secular buildings and we were going to do exactly what we advertised and lecture on the supernatural. Wait till you hear what happened I’ll pick up right here on tomorrow’s broadcast.
Sid: I tell you I am so excited about the interview this week; I was, as a friend of mine likes to say, I was minding my own business at church and trying to worship God and a woman walks up to my wife and shoves a book in her hand and says “I think you should read this.” And service was over and we got home and so my wife didn’t even look at the book. I take a look at it and I start reading it and I didn’t want to put the book down because for the first time; I mean there are many people that are saying “This is the moment that God is having such mercy on planet Earth; this is the moment to draw close to God; this the moment to hunger for God. This is the moment for intimacy; this is the moment to press into God. All of these words with most people it’s just words meaning okay somehow they’ve managed to have this breakthrough, but I don’t know what they’re saying; I don’t know how I can get that breakthrough for myself. And this is the first book that I have seen that is actually a practical guide for a breakthrough not just for the superstars. Because we’re in a new period in history in which thee Superstar will function and that is the Messiah; the one new man; the body of Messiah. That means that just as in the first church the least Christian walked in signs and miracles and heard God but we have in what is called 21st century American Christianity is not remotely close to what I read in the Bible. But I found a tool for you and I have the author on the telephone; his name is Gary Oates from Dallas, Georgia. He was raised Southern Baptist; he was on the staff of Campus Crusade; got filled with the Spirit; has been an Independent Charismatic Church Pastor and now is traveling the nations. And when I… I have to tell you Gary when I read your book my first thought was “Is this authentic?” And then I looked at the back page of the book and I saw a bunch of my friends that tell me they were eye witnesses to what God’s been doing with you. People like Randy Clark who’s probably seen more miracles per square inch than any human I know. This is what he says about your book. “This is one of the most exciting books I’ve read in a long time I can verify this story; I am a witness to what Gary has written and more.” And then perhaps my favorite person to interview Heidi Baker; I mean this is a woman that feeds orphans supernaturally in Africa and moves in all of the gifts of the Spirit and just has such child-like faith. She says “I couldn’t not put this amazing book down I laughed and cried as the Holy Spirit touched me through these anointed stories; if you want a deeper life in the Holy Spirit this book is for you.” Now Gary you were a charismatic Christian coming from a very evangelical fundamental type of a background. You were doing what a charismatic Christian does; but there was one moment according to your book that required a step of obedience that opened up a brand new door of intimacy with God. Tell me about that.
Gary: Well, in June of 2002 we were ministering in Brazil and the church worship was incredible the presence of God was so strong in the room. God spoke to me and He said “Take your shoes off your standing on Holy Ground.” My first reaction was “Well, I don’t want to do that it was a dirty dusty concrete floor and I had on clean socks and so I resisted.” And a couple moments later God spoke again and He said “Take your shoes off.” And I realized that this God I better do this and reached down and I take my shoes off quickly and thanked God I did because I believe that what followed would not have happened had I not taken my shoes off.
Sid: Let me interject something I have talked to people that have had distinct impressions while sitting in a church here in a America where the floors are good enough to eat off of run around the church and the thought was “Oh, everyone will look at me; no one else is doing it I’m not going to do that.” Could you put that almost in the same classification?
Gary: Well, yes in a way because often times you know God is speaking to us; we’re wanting to go to the next level; we’re wanting to experience more of Him, but yet we’re not willing to do the simple thing that He asks of us. And when we respond to the promptings of the Holy Spirit God can then entrust us with more when we’re faithful in the small things.
Sid: Okay, so you got your feet dirty; you respected God by honoring His word; what happened?
Gary: Well, I continued worshiping the Lordand I opened my eyes and I looked up on the platform as there was some dancers up there during the worship time and God opened my eyes to see angels; three angels dancing around two of the dancers.
Sid: Now were these like bright lights or were they really visible beings?
Gary: Well, I saw them as transparent; I saw them they were dressed in white; they were white flowing robes. And I didn’t see them just like I would see a person but I could see through them and they were dancing around these other dancers. Individual dancers over the side each one of them had a large angel that was arched over them and everywhere the dancer went the angel would move with them and I was amazed at what I was seeing.
Sid: Had you ever seen anything like this before?
Gary: No nothing like this.
Sid: But had you not taken, and this was so important Mishpochah, had Gary not taken that step and I guess the operative word Gary isobedience.
Sid: Had he not been obedient to the little inconsequential I mean it sounds inconsequential to me Gary.
Sid: Taking my shoes off in a dirty room; I don’t want to do but it’s so what what difference does it make? But for some reason it was you little step to cause God to I guess this might be called the gift of discernment where you could see in the invisible realm.
Gary: Yes, well my prayer had been before I went to Brazil to minister that God would open my eyes; that I would begin to see things from His perspective not just my own and that He would open my eyes to see the ministry of angels.
Sid: Well, what were these… why were these angels dancing with the human dancers that were worshiping God; what was going on in your opinion?
Gary: Well, I believe that the dancers were cooperating with what’s happening in Heaven and the angels manifested themselves around the dancers because we were worshiping God. It was moment of worship and of course the angels are worshipers of God and so I saw both what was happening in Heaven, the angels dancing before the Lord but also in the natural on the earth of the dancers dancing before the Lord.
Sid: What happened next?
Gary: Well, I looked up and above the platform was full of worshiping angels; they were playing instruments, dancing, they were singing it was the most beautiful sight I had ever seen. And I began to thank God for all that He was doing; I raised my hands to the Lord tears were just beginning to come down my cheeks. And I said “God I just want more of You; I want more of You!” And right then I felt myself getting bigger and taller and it was like I grew to 15 feet tall and I was looking down over everyone else worshiping. And I was awed by what was happening and then I started going up; now actually my spirit was leaving my body. My body was on the floor but my spirit was leaving my body and went up into the top of the tent. Now this church met in a large tent that seated 3,000 people. From that perspective I was looking down over the people worshiping God. And to be honest with you it was like fear began to grip me and I started resisting what God was doing.
Sid: I’ve heard other men of God say that and others listing to you say “Why would he do that?” but put yourself in such a unique situation and find out it’s not so simple is it Gary?”
Gary: No, especially when you’ve never been there before; I’d never experienced that it’s a whole new realm of the spirit. And so because of that I was resisting I starting coming back down and I thought no I messed up. And I began to cry out “God forgive me for up is better, up is better.”
Gary: And right when I said that I started going back up again and this time really fast and just like Superman went right through the top of tent way up into the sky. And I was looking down over the city; I could see the top of tent it was glowing with the glory of God. And God gave me zoom vision; but it was like a hole opened up in the top of the tent; I could see right down into the tent with people worshiping God. And I want to tell you the sensation that I felt is very difficult to describe because I was not limited to a physical body; it was like nothing was impossible. There were no limitations on me; again fear gripped me but it was a fear of the unknown; it was a fear of the supernatural because I’m the kind of guy that likes to have everything in a box. You know I like to have all my ducks in a row and I was way out of my box I was way out of my comfort zone; and again I started resisting what God was wanting to do. I started coming back down; I realized right then that I was the problem; I was the one that put the ceiling on how far I went with God. I honestly believe that God would have taken me all the way to the throne room had I not resisted.
Gary: And as I started back down I was just again I was just crying out to God; oh God forgive me forgive me I know I know I messed up again. And I came all the way back down just inside the tent. And I raised my hands to the Lord; it was my spiritual arms; it was like they went a mile up into the sky and I was looking up. And as I was looking up I saw Jesus coming down; he was wearing a robe; the presence…
Sid: Was He transparent like the angels?
Gary: No I didn’t see Him as transparent I saw Him as just as I would see a person; just as I would look at you. And He had His hands extended outward toward me; and He came all the way down and He took my hands and He held my hands real tight as if to say I’m not going to let you go. And I was overcome.
Sid: Oh were out of time we’ll pick up right here on tomorrow’s broadcast Mishpochah but I’m going to have Gary pray sometime this week a prayer of impartation that you would move in this realm.
Sid: The truth of the matter is although we are all equal in the Messiah we don’t all start on a level track. Many of us have been so tampered with even generationally that it takes us a long time to be able to be so free we can do exactly what the bible says. And I have two women that are responsible for a course it’s called Sozo. It’s located in Redding, California and it’s part of the Bethel Church Ministry. Dawna DeSilva and Teresa Liebscher and their hearts desire is for believers to be free. And both of them know what it is to be in bondage; many people haven’t been in the bondage that perhaps Teresa was in. Teresa just briefly tell me your background.
Teresa: I had the childhood that was from the time of being very young up until the early 20′s of having inappropriate things done by all kinds of people and I blocked it out until I was around 40. And then…
Sid: You know that amazes me; we were talking before we went on the air Teresa of how the mind protects us.
Teresa: Yes, the mind does very interesting things to protect who we are as people and help us also to survive and function. And it’s a… yeah it’s very interesting how the body, soul and mind work. And the next 10 years was a wonderful healing process and watching the Lord do interesting things; that was fun too; hard but fun.
Sid: And how did you hooked up with Dawna in this Sozo Ministry?
Teresa: Well Dawna and one of her friends in ’97 started doing Sozo using the tools that we teach in ministering to people and they saw wonderful freedom. And leadership saw what was going on and invited them to start a ministry and I was invited to sit in on a couple of sessions with Dawna when she was ministering to a teenager. And I just got hooked and they asked me to come and be a part of it and I started doing sessions. And I invited to help teach and schedule people and it just kept growing and growing and growing.
Sid: Teresa I hear a passion in your voice and I’m right I mean you have a passion, explain what that passion is.
Teresa: Well, I have a passion for Sozo because Sozo is such a wonderful ministry for helping people not only get tools to get them free, but these tools can be used to help other people get free in no matter what circumstance there in or what the calling or anointing they have. And I do get passionate and just love explaining this and helping people and teach this so that people can have an opportunity to not only get free but to help other people get free.
Sid: Now Dawna I’m going to ask you a few questions. You also have a passion and your passion is to see people fulfill their destiny even know what their destiny is. And many people are in such a prison even after becoming believers in the Messiah that they don’t catch their destiny or they’re not whole enough to walk in that destiny. Tell me one person that got free to walk in their destiny.
Dawna: We had a gentleman in Mexico we were ministering in an orphanage and he sat down with us and he said “You know I’m afraid of these children, I’m afraid of what I may do to these children.” And he said “When he was 18 years old and he said about four or five years prior a gentleman came in and prayed this spirit of perversion off of him and he felt it leave, but he was still afraid that he might harm the children. When I go to touch the children I hear “What do you want from them; what are you going to do?” And as we went into his background we found out that he had been molested as a child and he began to molest the children in the neighborhood. And so he came in with this real sense of shame as a Christian and we took him back to a memory is one of the tools of when he began to molest children. And we said “Jesus, where are You what’s the lie?” that he believes and he heard that “I’m evil.” And we said “Jesus, what’s the truth.” And then he said “But I am.” And he starts arguing, and arguing and I said “No, no, no what did Jesus say? That I’m not evil.” And he just started sobbing and he had a real pastor’s anointing and a pastor’s gift and the enemy wanted to make sure that this guy would not bend his arms and bring in the children and he’s free.
Sid: Now one of the things that you point out in your course is that the area that the devil has wounded in us the most is the area that is part of our destiny and it’s sort of like he tries to nip it in the bud so we can’t even move into our destiny.
Dawna: Amen, exactly right. We find a lot of times if you look at the attack against a person 90% of the time you can find their gifting, yeah.
Sid: Now I find your background is kind of interesting, your husband gets a nice job working in finances at a nice church called Bethel Church but they’re a little loud for you. And then a new pastor comes in Bill Johnson and he’s just bringing the Holy Spirit in and for years you’re in this church you’re a real quiet type of person and personality this isn’t you at all. But and everyone is flopping all over the floor and having encounters with the Holy Spirit and feeling all of these wonderful feelings and what’s going on with you Dawna?
Dawna: I was probably… there was two of us another pastor and I that were on the lines we had prayer lines at the time and they would come through and pray and everyone would fall, pray fall, pray fall. And this pastor and I would be the two left standing on this whole line and we look around we’d wink at each other like “Okay here we are but I so desperately wanted to fall under the power of God.”
Sid: Well, what’s changed that?
Dawna: Well, first of all I had to choose to let go of a religious spirit which was very much a part of who I was. I had to realize that this was real; that when people fell they got up changed; and I watched their lives. I sat there and watched them and then I had to start thanking the Lord for their freedom even though I wasn’t changing. That was the big breakthrough for me.
Sid: You know that reminds me of a Jewish man that I interviewed from Israel; he wasn’t a believer, he watched the 700 Club secretly he was paralyzed from the waist down. And one day one of the hosts of the 700 Club had a word of knowledge someone paralyzed from the waist down is being healed. He realized it wasn’t him because there wasn’t nothing going on so he started praying for the person that was being healed. The next morning he wakes up and he’s totally healed.
Dawna: Thank You Jesus, Amen that is awesome. If we get our minds off of us and onto God and begin to thank Him for what He’s done it breaks all of the fears, it breaks all of the religious spirit and it just begins the process of healing.
Sid: You know I’ve been going through your teaching on Sozo we have 4 CD’s that you used to teach people that want to receive it for themselves, and also be able to minister to other people. It’s really so simple, it’s really not complex when you think of deliverance you think of people vomiting and getting you know and speaking with funny voices and you know all of these things which I’ve seen and you have seen. But that’s not the way you handle it is it?
Dawna: No, we want to make sure that we are honoring to the person in the room with us and we are not looking for your sin; we are not looking for the demonic in you we’re looking for the wounds and the lies that allow the demonic to stay. And when we go into those places like with this young man from Mexico and we break the lie the demonic cannot stay and he cannot rule us anymore.Very gentle, very kind.
Sid: It’s almost like once this hold is broken he can’t even stay.
Dawna: They cannot; we call that closing the doors.
Sid: Going back to your background so you… once you started thanking God for what He was doing for other people even though He wasn’t doing it for you you got touched by the Holy Spirit. Was there a specific moment?
Dawna: There was a specific moment when one of the pastors actually the pastor who helped in Teresa’s healing Allen Rae, said “Dawna get up and give a testimony.” And I have no testimony I have been standing on this line for 2 years and I was just like “Oh no” and he shoves me up front and these ladies are testifying about God and how good he is and their falling and laughing. And he hands me the mic and I’m like “Well, I’m probably like the older brother who has always felt abandoned, like I’m here and don’t you care Lord and look at all of this weird stuff going on” and I said but I want that and I pointed to the girl that was just laughing hysterically on the floor and I felt a change, it was the first feeling of the Holy Spirit.
Sid: Why do you suppose you were that way; there are a lot of people like you that they never slain in the Spirit, everyone else is feeling things and they don’t feel anything. What is the reason for that?
Dawna: Well one of the issues that I had growing up was some real mommy wounds and we will probably talk about that later but how the mommy wounds affect my view of the Holy Spirit. And I started out with the Lord and I said “I’m going to start praising the Godhead a certain way and I said Father God I thank You that You’re the creator of the Heavens and the Earth and I thank You Jesus that You died for my sins and I thank You Holy Spirit for whatever it is You do.” So I had no grid for the Holy Spirit.
Sid: You know Mishpochah I find this is so sensible their teaching and really so simple. They have certain key questions that you ask yourself and certain key areas and they actually taught their course and most of you can’t go out to Reading, California….
Sid: Now my guest Carlos Sarmiento… Carlos the experience that you had you’re not Jewish I happen to be Jewish. We’re both believers in the Messiah, you’re just doing what you’re supposed to do because the Bibles says that the Gentle believer in Jesus is to provoke the Jew to jealousy. I’m telling you did it with what happened to you. I’m going to take you back to that date May 8th, 2005. You’re asleep it’s 4:00 AM in the morning and all of a sudden you catch your spirit slipping out of your body because you see your wife. You know laying there right in the bed and an angel was holding you up and you start rising up through the clouds. And you begin to be really taken by the colors especially since in the natural you’re colorblind but all of your senses are being magnified. And then you more to another scene and you see Jesus talking to His Father God. And what are they discussing?
Carlos: They’re talking about the current condition of the Body of Christ and the Church. And the primary thing that I received out of that encounter as they were talking, and you know I heard a voice that said to me “You’ve been granted to stand here and listen.” And so I felt this peace that I could listen to this conversation. So I remember they didn’t pay attention to me it was almost as if I wasn’t there but I was like a 3rd party in this conversation. And so I stood there, I was maybe 10 feet away from them as I stood there and listened I began to really intently focus on their words. And they were talking about the condition of the earth, but they were also talking about where the church would be going, where the church was today, and the plans of God through the ministry of the Holy Spirit for the last great movement and the greatest harvest of souls. One of the things that I clearly remember them talking about was how the greatest signs, wonders and miracles were still yet to come that were part of the last day generation, the last great move of the Spirit of God as the climax to the last great outpouring of the Holy Spirit because we’re still in that great outpouring season.
Sid: Now most prophets, or people that are prophetic, miss timing. But as I hear you share this it sounds to me like we have a little bit of time to prepare before this great explosion of the Holy Spirit or do you think it’s already happened?
Carlos: I believe that the way that the Holy Spirit operates is that He operates through preparation, He always has his several messengers that begin to prepare the church for what He wants to come. I call them forerunners. And I believe that we’re at a stage, the Holy Spirit is always moving, He’s operating. I believe that we’re living in a day and an hour where the Holy Spirit is really beginning to take it up a notch. And what I believe by that is that He really is preparing His forerunner messengers for the sole purpose of preparing the Church to become the Bride of Christ. Which is the ultimate identification and the ultimate relational experience that the Body of Christ could encounter with Jesus. Which is of course the intimacy between the bridegroom and the bride. Which is the Church, Christ and the Church. I believe that the Holy Spirit is definitely in operation and He’s moving and I believe that we’re at the very beginning stage of preparation. Because preparation to me really involves learning to live in the urgent hour that we’re living in. Not just living in yesterday’s revelation, yesterday’s manna, but I believe the Spirit of God is trying to awaken the church primarily to turn back to her first love and fulfill the great commandment. I think that we as a Church over all we try to fulfill the second commandment, loving our neighbor, reaching souls, evangelism without fulfilling the great commandment first. I believe the Holy Spirit is working overtime through messengers, encountering people, encountering men of God, women of God. Those in ministry, those that are not in ministry, marketplace people to become lovesick forerunners so that they can become like trumpeters, prophetic voices to awaken the Church to say Jesus is coming, we must return back to the first great commandment. Walk in it and as we do so we will see the greatest manifestation of the power of God, the miraculous and massive souls coming in. Because Holy Spirit will be able to trust those servants who will not rape the church nor take advantage of the Body of Christ nor take the glory for themselves but they will give the glory to Christ.
Sid: Can you give me a sanctified speculation of what these great miracles might look like that are about around the corner?
Carlos: I would say that there is nothing new under the sun; so what I would say is the miracles that are taking place worldwide will take place in that day now. But what I sense and what I saw was a massive explosion where it would be enlarge masses. Almost you know like the Book of Acts,
Sid: Wait, wait, wait Kathryn Kuhlman prophesied that a day would come when a true believer would walk into a hospital and everyone in the hospital would be instantly healed. Is that the type of magnitude that you’re talking about?
Carlos: Yes, and the way that I received it and I’ve been sensing it is that it’s not just those that are called to full time. It’s the average believer that would walk in fullness, the Stevens, the Philips. They were not the apostles, they were not part of the upper tier leadership but they were man and woman of God who loved the Lord and gave Him glory and they walked in great anointing and great authority because of their connection with the Lord. I believe that’s what the Holy Spirit intends to do and He’s going to do. He’s always going to have His forerunners, He’s always going to have His men and women in place the Kathryn Kuhlman’s, the Benny Hinn’s the Kenneth Hagin’s the great men of the day. He always will have them as provokers as sparkers, as forerunner. But the true mark of the forerunner is to invite the general body, not just the upper tier of leadership. I really believe the Holy Spirit is preparing the Body for a massive sweep of God’s power that will involve whosoever thirsts let him come. I believe that the Holy Spirit wants to do.
Sid: Now I have to ask you what were the most terrifying words you heard in heaven?
Carlos: Well in that encounter at one point in the conversation between the Father and the Son, the Father looked at Jesus and this was near the end of that conversation; near the end of the encounter. When the Father said to Jesus “It’s time Son go get your bride!” And Sid the only way that I could explain how I felt at that time was the terror, the terror. It was like the terror I didn’t understand what the terror or the fear of the Lord was. But at that moment I felt the terror and fear of the Lord. It was like those words that He spoke I could almost see them in my spirit that those words were created, they formed like a ball of fire in that word rolled towards me. And I knew that this ball of fire was going to hit my inner-man. And I remember when that word came and hit my midsection and I could tell that my body began to shake violently and I knew that I was about to say something that I didn’t want to say. And what came out of my lips; what came out of my mouth were these words that said and I screamed it at the top of my lungs, “No… we are not ready!”
Sid: Why did you say that?
Carlos: You know I was shocked by what I said; I was really disturbed by what I said; as a matter of fact when I came out of my encounter. I said “My God, my God what was that?” And I remember I was so disturbed by those words that I was shaking and crying out loud I realized that it was 4:00 AM in the morning and I threw myself on the floor and four 2 hours Sid all I could tell you was that those words “No, we’re not ready! No, we’re not ready!” They kept coming back to me and I didn’t understand why I said that. I said “Lord, am I not ready? Is my life not ready? Am I not ready to meet you? Is my family not ready, is my ministry not ready? Why would I say that, and for 2 hours I cried out, show me, speak to me? So finally at the end of those two hours of standing, sitting before, laying before the Lord I heard the gentle voice of the Holy Spirit that said “Son, if I took you home right now you are ready to meet Me for eternity, but in the condition your heart is in right now you are not ready for the next great move of the Holy Spirit that I’m about to visit the earth with.” And that’s what put me in a seeking mode where I said “Lord, I don’t know how to get ready, teach me; show me how to get ready.” And that’s what brought me to the place where we are today.
Sid: Tell me just a few things that the Holy Spirit showed you to do personally to get ready.
Carlos: The first thing He showed me was through a series of events and through me seeking the Lord about that. He said “Carlos number 1 you must return to your first love.” And he reminded me of the Church of Ephesus in the Book of Revelation; how the Church of Ephesus had great works. Sid, I could tell you when I was encountered by the Lord our church was exploding, we had; we were prosperous financial church, we were seeing souls left and right coming into the kingdom, people getting healed miraculously, we had a thriving, lively church full of excitement. But then the Lord began to show me through this encounter, and as I was seeking the Lord Carlos, “You’ve grown comfortable. Yes you love Me, yes you seek Me but son your heart does not burn for Me the way it used to and I’m looking for servants that will keep the first commandment the first thing, who will major in the major and not minor at it. They’re going to seek Me with all of their heart, mind, soul and strength.”
Sid: Carlos, we’re out of time right now; we’ll pick up on the instructions. Because the instructions that Carlos got they’re the instructions for you. I know you want to sell out to the Lord, but there are things that are stopping you. But I do not want you to say “I’m not ready” when the greatest move to ever hit planet earth is right around the corner and God’s having you listen to this interview right now to be prepared.