Sid: Now John, you made a big shift I have friends that are pre-tribers, I have friends that are mid-tribers and those that the rapture will occur in the middle of the tribulation. And then I have people that are post-tribers that it will happen after the tribulation. And people are ferrous in their views on this. What really caused you to change your mind because you were raised as the tribulation…the rapture will occur before the tribulation?
John: Well, I would have to say that as I was studying that God was building a case for a mid-trib rapture line upon line and chapter upon chapter. I mean it’s like I did not have an agenda when I started writing on my initial thought was “If the rapture is pre-trib God is going to show me from His word and we’re going to put it to bed it’s going to be just done and said in the word of God and we’re going to know it’s pre-trib; and if it isn’t I believe that because God was calling me to do the study and that God would help me if it’s not pre-trib God will show me from His word what it is.” And that’s what happened.
Sid: Now, do you feel the Holy Spirit directed you to certain books and things to begin to get this understanding?
John: Absolutely it was phenomenal how God lead and guided me. In fact you know after that first year of study I had about 80 or 90 pages of what eventually became a 250 page book. And when I thought I was almost done after a year I actually went back to the Lord in prayer and fasting and I said “Would You help me with the last 10 or 20 pages so I can complete this assignment that You’ve given to me?” And after I sought God in prayer and fasting within the next 2 weeks God started opening up the book of Revelation beyond what I could ever imagine. In fact do you want me to give you an example of what God showed me?
John: Okay I list within 2 weeks of asking for God’s help I was reading in Revelation’s chapter 12 where it talks about the beast coming out of the sea. Now this beast coming out of the sea is talking about a beast government…
John: With 10 heads 10 horns you know 10 crowns and then it says “One of the heads of the beast is fatally wounded.” Now what it’s saying here is one of the heads there are a global government basically prophetic teachers are agreeing that the anti-Christ is going to rule over every nation. And in order for that to happen the world would be divided into 10 regions. And every region would have a regional leader.
Sid: So that’s the 10 heads.
John: Yes, in fact North America the globalist that are already putting this plan together have put North America as Canada, Mexico and the United States. That would have one head of the 10 regions of the world. So in this verse were it says “One of the heads is fatally wounded.”
Sid: Now wait a second I’ve always heard that was the anti-Christ you’re saying “Not necessarily.”
John: Exactly, I had always thought that verse was talking about the leader of the one world government…
John: Wounded in the head but God just opened my eyes and I realized what it said it said “One of the heads.” Well, there’s 10 heads and they’re not physical heads they’re heads of State. So 10 Leaders, 10 heads of state for a global government 10 regions of the world when it says “One of the heads of the beast is fatally wounded I realized that 1 of the 10 leaders will be wounded but not necessarily in the head, he could be wounded in the chest.” It’s saying head of state not wounded in the head. So with this really popped into my mind is that if the anti-Christ is going to be one of the 10 global leaders then realize in order to be qualified to be the anti-Christ you have to be one of the 10 regional leaders. And here’s another revelation if the wounding of this one of 10 heads of state reveals the anti-Christ think about it “If the global government is in place with 10 heads and one of those 10 heads is now going to become the leader of the global government then that means the global government has to be in place before the anti-Christ can be revealed. And you see my original thinking as a pre-trib believer was that the anti-Christ would be revealed after the rapture. But when you go and take this Revelation 12 verse where it says “One of the heads of the beast is fatally wounded” basically after the government is put in place. And then when you read in Thessalonians where Paul says “Don’t let anyone deceive you the gathering unto Him” which is the gather is the rapture “Will not happen until there is a great falling away and the man of sin is revealed.” Well, if the gathering can’t happen until after the Anti-Christ is revealed well then that is saying when you put it together the rapture can’t happen until there’s a global government put in place and can’t happen until after the Anti-Christ rises to power. Now it doesn’t say how much after, but it’s basically saying that if there’s going to be a global government where every nation on earth is going to give up their independence and they’re Constitution. And America in this case we’d give up our freedom of speech, freedom of religion, freedom and right to bear arms, we would give up all of these rights all of the nations of the world would give up these rights. Well, this is when it dawned on me that something so catastrophic would have to happen on this planet that nations would willingly give up their independence and join a global solution. And when I realized that point that “Boy this sounds like we could be heading for a global economic collapse that would literally create a scenario that would be so bad that people starving and anarchy and martial law that nations would say “I want food for my families so if there is a global currency and a global government that we can join that will solve all of these problems I’m for it and the nations will crumble and join this global government.”
Sid: Well, you list 7 events that are really over the top once people realize it that have to happen before the rapture.
John: Yes, well you know this started coming to me as I was saying when I realized that the anti-Christ can’t come to power until the one world government is in place because he’s one of the 10 heads of the government of this global government. When I realized that and it says in Thessalonians that the gathering of the rapture cannot occur until after the anti-Christ is revealed then I realized that Number 1 “The one the one world government has to be in place before the rapture can occur.” Because Paul said “The rapture would happen after the revealing of the anti-Christ.” And he can’t show up until he’s one of the 10 regions of the world. So there’s number one. Well, in Thessalonians it says “Don’t be deceived the gathering is not going to happen until there is a great falling away and the anti-Christ is revealed.” Well, the great falling away I believe is that when the economies of the world collapse and the rapture doesn’t happen because the majority of the Christians have been taught “You don’t have to worry about anything, you don’t need to prepare one of these days real soon we’re out of here.” Well, imagine the shock that will happen to the church world when the economies of the world collapse, food runs out of the stores there’s famine and starvation and martial law and rapture hasn’t happened. I believe that will be such a shock that many people will be bitter at their pastors, they’ll be bitter at God and they’ll be a great falling away. So that’s my number 2. And of course Paul said that “There would be 2 things that would happen.” The gathering unto Him is not going to happen until a there’s a great falling away and the anti-Christ is revealed.” So the revealing the anti-Christ is Number 3. So then we continue on as I continue in my studies and when you read Matthew 24 let me tell you Matthew 24 it literally an outline of events that are going to happen leading up to the rapture. If you go and read Matthew 24 verses 29-31 it says “The sun is going to go dark and the moon will not give it’s light and at that time we will see the sign of the Son of man coming in the clouds.” Well, when you read what’s ahead of Matthew 24:29 you’re literally reading events that are happening on the earth. And one of the events that you read about in the middle of chapter 24 is the anti-Christ desecrating the Temple.
Sid: Well, there has to be a Temple before it’s desecrated!
John: Exactly, he can’t desecrated the Temple if the Temple hasn’t been rebuilt! And if Jesus coming in the clouds happens after the desecration of the Temple well then here we are the Temple has to be rebuilt as Number 4. And then of course it says that the anti-Christ is going to desecrate it and this event is happening before the rapture that we’re literally seeing in Matthew 24:29-31. So there’s Number 5. And let me just read this Matthew 24 it is just an incredible portion of scripture where it says in verse 29 “Immediately after the distress of those days.” Let me tell you when the world is falling a part and a global government is being formed there’s going to be distress, it says “The sun will be darkened and the moon will not give it’s light, the stars will fall from the sky, the heavenly bodies will be shaken at that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky and all of the nations will mourn, they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory and He will send His angels with loud trumpet call and they will gather His elect from the 4 winds. Does that sound like the rapture to you?
Sid: It sounds exactly like the rapture to me. I mean when you found all of these things that had to occur before the rapture and they haven’t occurred yet what did it hurt your faith. You learned this for so many years about the pre-trib rapture what effect did it have one you did you think maybe you’re wrong?
John: Well, you know before I actually put these 7 things together I started already seeing the pieces coming together. You know in fact one of the things that I started recognizing is that in the book of Revelation there are 7 seals, 7 trumpets, and 7 bowls of God’s wrath. And I started seeing the rapture happening in Revelation’s chapter 7. But I had always been taught that the 7 seals from chapter 6 was part of the wrath of God. And I had a conversation with a pastor friend and I was saying that the 5th seal is the martyrdom of the Saints. So how could that be the wrath of God? And he told me he says that “Well, the first 4 horses is the wrath of God.” And then I’m looking at the first 4 horses and the first one I see as the revealing Anti-Christ and I’m saying “That doesn’t sound like the wrath of God.” So I left this men’s breakfast where I had this conversation and I’m driving home and I’m having this conversation with God and I’m saying “God could You tell me why or how I could explain that the seals is not the wrath of God because I don’t believe that we are to go through the wrath of God; and if we’re going to go through the seals before the wrath of God starts I need to know how to explain that the seals is not the wrath of God. So as I was driving down the road and having this conversation I said “God can you tell me the difference between the seals and the wrath of God.” And the Holy Spirit just down loaded this thought into my mind and the Holy Spirit said “The difference is the delivery, the wrath of God is delivered by angels and there are no angels in the seals.” Now I had never heard this before, as soon as I got home I opened up my Bible and sure enough there’s not an angel to be found in the opening of the 7 seals. But the 7 trumpets there’s an angel that delivers every trumpet. The 7 bowls of God’s wrath there’s an angel that delivers every bowl. When you go into the Old Testament in Egypt and in Jerusalem and in times of judgment you’re always seeing angels. And that’s when I realized that the 7 seals is not the wrath of God. We are not accounted to wrath as the Bible says. It’s almost as if the 4 horses is the wrath of satan not the wrath of God. And the martyrdom of the saints is coming from the enemy of God it’s not part of God’s wrath.
Sid: John, these two books which I’m holding in my hand right now “The Lord’s Return and Unlocking the Mystery of Revelation Unveiling of What is Sealed.” What type of feedback are you getting from people when they read these books?
John: It’s unbelievable! I have had so many letters it’s in the 100’s of people.
Sid: Tell me one that comes to mind right now.
John: Well, I have this pastor that wrote me a few months ago he’s a Southern Baptist Minister he’s got a Doctors of Theology and he wrote me he said “A previous person who I had pastured them many years ago they called me and they said “You’ve got to read this book.” And just out of respect for this former friend I ordered your book and he said “I never would have picked this book off a bookshelf and I read through it and when I read through it the first time I said “I have to admit that you stumped me even though I didn’t want to believe what you were saying you had me stumped so I read it a second time with a pen and pad.” And he said “After I had finished reading the second time I realized my position for pretrib for 40 years had been wrong; he since read it through 4 times and I have to totally agree your book is full of the word of God and you can’t argue with the word of God that you have laid out in your book.” And this pastor said “I have since taken 12 of your books and given them to pastor friends and one to the Vice President of a Bible college and everyone of them came back to me and said “I can’t argue with the scripture and I can’t believe we never saw it.” And I hear that comment over and over again and yet at the same time I hear people say “I don’t want to believe it and I refuse to read it.”
Sid: Why is it important for people to believe what you have just…the revelation that you have in these 2 books, why is it important?
John: Well, you know in America we as Christians in America have been so sheltered for so many decades and generations that we have been taught that we would never have to face any kind of hard times. And yet Christians around the world you know the Jews during the 2nd World War millions of them died because they were God’s chosen people. And in the 2nd World War even millions of Christians died and in fact the Christian Church in Europe before the 2nd World War they were being taught that the rapture was coming before hard times and it didn’t. And when millions of Christians died in the 40’s under Hitler it devastated the church and the church in Europe never recovered. And I believe that the enemy is going to use the same game plan on America. The church needs to be warned that even that like the disciples twelve, eleven of Jesus’ disciples were martyred did any of them fall away from God because they had to face hard times? No, they were prepared for it mentally, spiritually they were prepared. And the church in America is not prepared. That’s why I believe that Paul said “There would be a great falling away and this book is the warning from God that we need to be open to look at the word of God. Because the Bible said…
Sid: You know John wait a second now John those are very serious words you must be very certain that this revelation from God based on scripture is that important for people to have.
John: Well, you know this Baptist preacher he actually sent me a DVD of a Sunday morning where he preached to his church and told them I have been wrong for 40 years. And he literally made a signup sheet for every family in his church to get my book and they ordered like 150 books and he came back to me and he said “After all of the people in my church read your book he says not one of them could refute it and they all agreed that this book is correct.
Sid: And you know something else that I think is so amazing in these 2 books John the first book is “The Window of the Lord’s Return” the second is “Unlocking the Mystery of the Book of Revelation.” You actually have unlocked the mystery of America, the future of America of what’s going to happen very shortly in America and in fact we’ll talk a little bit about it when we come back….for the 2 books “The Window of the Lord’s Return” and John has this window between now and 2020 and the second book “Unlocking the Mystery of the Book of Revelation” special bookmark we put together. It’s a Bible bookmark which will show you the chronological order of the book of Revelation where I tell you for the first time you yourself will be able to put that message together, you according to the book of Revelation you receive a blessing from God. And I can tell you God Himself told me “I am coming back soon.” And maybe that’s why our ministry is so exploding a lot of you don’t really understand our ministry. Let me tell you what our mission statement is we have a purpose “Evangelize all people” that’s our purpose. And you know what the Bible says “He who win souls is wise.” Then we have a method; our method is to do exactly what the Bible tells us that few Christians are doing go to the Jew first. When God wanted to reach the world who did He go to first Abraham the first Jew; when Jesus wanted to reach the world what did He say “I go only to the lost sheep of Israel.” When Paul the missionary to the Gentiles wanted to reach the Gentile he said in Roman’s 1:16 “I go to the Jew first not exclusively but by going to the Jew first I have proven that you will reach more Gentiles than by going to the Gentile first. So we have a strategy, the strategy is to equip the church to operate in the supernatural and for us to go to the Jew first. Did you know our television show in Israel, listen to this we’re on 28 times a week, “It’s Supernatural” television show on secular and religious television and we’re on in 4 languages Russian, Arabic, English and Hebrew. And I mean on secular TV and religious we are flooding Israel with the gospel. John Shorely do you have any idea why God would allow us to flood Israel with the gospel at this moment of history?
John: Well you know it’s God’s mission to reach His people and they’re God’s special chosen elect. So you know that’s the heart of God to not only reach all of the people in every tribe on earth but especially to bring His people back to Himself.
Sid: But I have to tell you we in this ministry are walking under such Divine favor and I believe it’s because we’re going to the Jew first because there’s going to be a Holy Spirit explosion in the Middle East. There will be natural explosions but there will be a Holy Spirit explosion with all of this word going with all of these languages on secular and on religious television 28 times a week! And I might add that if you are looking for a soul winning ministry that goes to the Jew first that equips Christians to move in the supernatural we have so many opportunities before us that if you want to partner with us when you purchase the 2 books “The Lord’s Return” and “Unlocking the Mystery the Book of Revelation” and this special Bible bookmark with the chronological order of the book of Revelation…And John you say Mystery Babylon is the United States of America. And we both recognize that Babylon in the Bible is Iraq but the book of Revelation puts that description Mystery Babylon why?
John: Well, I believe that Mystery Babylon was the term that was used because it was talking about a future superpower as Babylon was a superpower of it’s day but I believe that it was referring to a future superpower that didn’t exit when the Bible was written. And what was interesting all of the superpowers in the earth today America is the only superpower that didn’t exist when the Bible was written. And what’s also interesting about America is that America is kind of one of the biggest countries of commerce. And this description of Mystery Babylon is describing a country where all of the countries of the world are trading with this country and selling and buying their goods and that is not Iraq. I’ve heard some people say that the day is coming when the Old Babylon will be brought to such a level of commerce that it will be kind of one of biggest trading centers in the world, but that would take 100 years. And if you take a look at Iraq what are they selling? They’re selling oil, but this country called Mystery Babylon was selling all manner of goods. And when you understand it from this standpoint it’s describing the country surrounding by many waters that’s America.
Sid: Okay, how does America fit into the prophetic future as Mystery Babylon?
John: Well you know if you go and take a look at America today we are the biggest ally of Israel. And Israel in the last days is going to be standing alone, something has to happen that America is not going to come to the rescue of Israel. God is going to come to Israel’s aid and will rescue Israel during the time of the battle of Gog and Magog and the battle of Armageddon. So it only makes sense to me that something has to happen to America that we will no longer be the world cop, we will no longer be the ally to Israel that will come to its aid in the last days.
Sid: So you’re saying America will not be a super power almost a 3rd world nation in the future.
John: Yes, that is what I hate to say it but that’s what I believe is going to happen. In fact if you go and take a look a what’s happening in the world and what’s happening in America right now we are seeing economic chaos building up around the world and especially in America. And I don’t believe that it would take very much to literally topple America from being the number 1 superpower in the world today.
Sid: Okay, tell me about the recent revelation you just had.
John: Well you know I recently was prompted to study the signs of the times of the end-times and I started searching the scriptures and it talks about the sun and the moon and the stars that they would be signs in the heavens. And we’ve been seeing the blood moons recently and the blood moons are happening this year and next year. And the Bible talks about the land of Israel and the face that Israel would be rebirth as a nation and that it would never be destroyed. And that the rebirth of Israel would trigger a period of time that says “That this generation shall not pass away till the coming of the Son of man. So what I did in my study I went to Matthew 24 because in Matthew 24 you know Jesus disciples met with him and they wanted to know they said “Tell us what would be…what will happen and what will be sign of your coming at the end of the age.” Well you know as I have studied Matthew 24 what is very fascinating is that if you study Matthew 24 and then if you study Revelation’s chapter 6 you literally can see the outline of the book of Revelations chapter 6 where the opening of the 7 seals happens in Revelations chapter 6. But Jesus outlined all of these same points; in fact if you go and take a look at verse 4 of Matthew 24 it talks about a deceiver an anti-Christ. And then the next verse verse 7 it says nation will rise against nation. The second seal is wars and then it says “There will be famines; that’s the third seal in Revelation 6 and then it says “You will be handed over to be persecuted and be put to death.” That’s the 5th seal the martyrdom of the saints. And then verse 29 it says “Immediately after the distress of those days the sun will be darkened and the moon will not give its light.” And if you read Revelations the 6th seal it says “They opened the 6th seal there was a great earthquake and the sun went dark and the moon did not give its light.” And in Matthew 24 falling the sun and the moon going dark it says “At that time the sign of the Son of man will appear in the sky” and going down it says that He will send His angels with a loud trumpet call and they will gather His elect from the 4 winds.” Matthew 24 is literally covering the outline of the seals of Revelation 6 40 years before it was revealed to John all the way to the sun going dark and in 6th seal the sun and the moon go dark. And you see I have always believed in my study that the opening of the 7th seal it say’s “They opened the 7th seal and there was silence in heaven for 30 minute.” I have always believed that the 7th seal is the time of the rapture and the silence in heaven is as the saints arrive and we’re bowing before God at the throne that we are speechless the holy hush around the throne as literally the promise the final promise of God is unfolding at the throne of God. And that’s in chapter 7 and in verse 7:9 elders said “Who are these in white robes they are so numerous that you can’t even count them who are they and where did they come from?” And then He says “These are those who have come out of the great tribulation.” Well, like I say I see the rapture the opening of the 7th seal. So what’s interesting in Matthew 24 verse 3 Jesus disciples are meeting Jesus on the Mount of Olives and the disciples came to Him privately “Tell us they said when will this happen and what will be sign of your coming and the end of the age.” And if you have a red letter addition you can see Jesus’s answer following that question. And Jesus answer is literally and outlined of the events that we read in revelation chapter 6 all of the way up to the 6th seal where sun goes dark and that’s Matthew 24 verse 29. It’s like “This is incredible stuff in fact in verse 15 part of Jesus answer to His disciples He says “When you see standing in the holy place the abomination that causes desolation.” You know what Jesus said? Jesus said the anti-Christ is going to stand in the temple and he’s going to cause the abomination of desolation this was part of Jesus answer. “Jesus what will be the sign of You’re coming?” They were asking Jesus “Jesus what are we going to see, what are we going to go through before You come for Your saints?” And Matthew 24 is the answer.
Sid: So what should we be doing if this scenario is as close as you indicate in your books?
John: Well, I believe that when things start falling apart in this country and around the world I believe that we’re going to be entering a period of economic crisis that that crisis is going to birth a one world government, a new global currency and a new system that will be the system of the anti-Christ. And when things start falling apart people are going to be looking for answers. Just like what happened when the churches filled up on 9/11 when everything starts to crumble the churches are going to fill up and I believe that if the saints would have the right spiritual attitude that a time is coming for great revival that we have the answer.
Sid: Well, I’m an evangelist and just as we sat down to do this radio broadcast I got the best news our station in Ukraine it covers the nation of Ukraine. It’s a secular station and a miracle happened they took us but they just added the 10 million new subscribe viewers. Do you realize that at this moment in history being able to be in the nation of Ukraine that is loaded with Jewish people. And anti-Semitism is all time high. And in Israel we’re on 28 times a week! You heard me right secular as well as Christian television in Hebrew and Russian in English. This is God’s time to have mercy on Israel.
Sid: Mishpochah is a Hebrew word it means family and we’re the Mishpochah the family with a Jewish heart made up with Jewish and non-Jewish people. Why? Because the middle wall of separation has come down and these 2 have become something greater than it’s parts we’ve become what Paul calls the one new man the Body of Messiah. Why, because we are about ready to see the glory come to the church. We’re about ready to see the greatest move of God’s Spirit in history. I tell you heaven is closer to earth at this moment than at any other time in history. And the Messiah has come to set the captives free, to open the prison doors but there are some areas in your life of compulsive habits, of smoke symptoms if you will of what’s really going on in your soul that you have buried so deep that you’re not really aware of it. And if you’re not free how can you set other people free and God is having you listen this week to get the tools from Craig Hill Founder of Family Foundations… Craig we were talking yesterday about how shame goes from generation to generation.
Sid: And you had a case with your own son he said a bad word, the teacher told you about it you turned all different shades of color you were embarrassed, you wanted to show her you were a man of God and you know how to discipline your son right in front of her. You were headed towards your son and you were arrested by the Holy Spirit what happened?
Craig: Yeah He stopped me right there Sid and He said “What are you doing?” And I said “I’m going to discipline my son.” And the Lord said “No, you’re not your going to shame him.” And I said “What do you mean Lord?” And He said “You’re going to connect his value to his works and you’re going to make him feel he’s worthless because of what he did.” And the Lord said “That’s not my attitude toward him he does need to be disciplined but he’s not worthless.” And the Lord said “The reason you’re doing that is because you feel so worthless on the inside as a Pastor and as a father.” And the Lord said “That is shame” and the Lord said “You’re going to have to deal with your own shame before you’re even qualified to be able to minister properly to your son.” And you know it took me an hour at home of allowing the Lord to open that up to me expose to me that feeling, that deep feeling on the inside of worthlessness, the lie that the enemy had put on the inside that because your son sad a bad word you’re a worthless father, you’re a worthless pastor, you have no value.” And the Lord said “That’s a lie and it’s deep rooted emotionally within you. The truth is I love you you’re my son; and you’re value doesn’t float up and down based on the behavior of a 4 year old.” And once I got a revelation on that on an emotional level and the Lord really spoke truth to me it set me free.” Which is what Jesus said of course in John chapter 8 verse :32 “You’ll know the truth and the truth will set you free.” And then when I was free inside then I was able to minister to my son and to share with him that was a bad word and that he did need some discipline he needed a spanking, he needed some correction. But he didn’t need me to make him feel worthless because he did that he needed me to let him know that I still loved him, that God loved him, that his destiny did not change, his value had not changed, but there was correction and discipline coming because of what he had done wrong. And I was able to do that and I know that that was an experience that sowed life into him rather than death, it sowed honor and glory into him rather than shame which was what the devil intention is.
Sid: You maintained that actually the opposite of shame is glory, what do you mean?
Craig: I really think that’s true. It says in Hebrews chapter 2 verse 7 speaking of man “Thou has made him a little lower than the angels, Thou has crowned him with glory and honor.” God intended for us to experience the feeling of honor and glory, glory of course is a feeling of great value. Shame is the opposite of feeling of great value it’s a feeling of worthlessness of having no value. So as we were talking you were talking just at the beginning of this broadcast that God is just about to pour out His glory upon this earth. Which is experiencing small measures of it, little tastes of it but there’s intense glory that’s coming that’s the intensity of the value of who God is and the value of who we are and what He paid for us by the blood of Messiah.
Sid: You know in your tape series you identify areas of shame that are actually hidden to many believers could you tell us a few.
Craig: Well so many times we don’t recognize that same really is the root of a lot of compulsive behavior, we don’t realize that we’re shaming other people when we’re connecting their value to their works. And so some of the areas that shame is imparted, well maybe I can share a little bit some of how shame get’s imparted because as you just alluded to it’s a hidden type of thing. Many times we’re shaming people around us, shaming people in our own family as a result of our own shame and don’t know it. I identified in the tapes 7 rules as it were in a shame based home. In other words, if you do these things this will identify shame. Many times people don’t realize it. Really if we start with rule number 0.
Rule Number 0 is “There is a rule maker and the rule maker is always right.” In other words “I’m the father around here everybody does as I say.” Or maybe the grandmother or mother could be anybody.
Number 1 is: “Always remain in control of all behavior, all feelings and circumstances.
Rule Number 2: Better do everything right, always be right.
Rule Number 3: is an interesting one when rules 1 and 2 fail and things do get out of control blame somebody. In other words never take responsibility if anything that doesn’t work blame somebody else in your life for things that don’t work.
Rule Number 4: Deny everybody in the family any expression of personhood. In other words nobody gets to share feelings, thoughts, needs, desires, hopes, dreams. If you share any of those kind of things in a shame based family you’ll be ridiculed and told “You’re stupid, you’re foolish, you shouldn’t even think those things.”
Rule Number 5: Always hide and maintain secrecy with anything that’s wrong. In other words we establish a vast appearance management system so that we make everything look okay on the outside even when things are not okay. And by doing that again we just retain all of the shame on the inside and continue to shame everybody else.
Sid: Would you say that someone that has to control every circumstance behind that is shame.
Craig: Always, always behind all of control is shame.
Sid: Could that have infected even the church from the pastor down?
Craig: You know what I think it does infest a lot of churches that where there’s a deep fear even on the inside of the pastor of things being out of control, things not working the way he wants…
Sid: So what happens if God wants to do something that Pastor has never seen before he’ll cut it off before it has a chance to manifest and show the fruit.
Craig: Absolutely, out of the deep seated fear on the inside that something might get out of control and that really is a manifestation and a symptom of shame needing to control everything to make sure everybody does things right, that everybody does what I want them to do. Because when shame is deep in the heart shame says “When something gets out of control that’s how I can get blamed, that’s how I can get hurt, that’s how somebody can make me feel worthless.” And so the way that I can keep everything in tact and I keep myself valuable is I just make sure I control everything and then nobody ever does anything that they’re not supposed to.
Sid: Let’s go back very briefly to your book “Bondage Broken.” You point out something that when you’re soul is out of peace and you don’t even know it you medicate it through watching television, through gossiping, through lying, through exaggerating, through criticizing, through addictions, through overeating, through sexual perversions. Explain that briefly.
Craig: Again the concept is simply this – those external things that we do we struggle with anger or impure thoughts or all of those things that you mentioned are really external symptoms they’re like smoke. They’re always emanating from a fire because the soul is out of peace. So when the mind, will and emotions are out of peace the flesh engages to try to bring a false comfort a false…
Sid: Even though your mind doesn’t know that your soul is out of peace your still by that smoke that’s the only way sometimes you can tell.
Craig: The way that you can tell is the external symptom of seeing the smoke observing that hey this is going on and again it’s not there for no reason it has a reason it has a reason. And beneath that soul being out of peace there’s always a deep rooted fear of some sort, that I’m not valuable. And again shame is really a type of fear, shame is a feeling I’m worthless, I’m of no value. And when that is working on the inside then people are going to do something that provided comfort. And again all we usually tell people to do is to try harder, pray more, read the word more all of which are good things, but they won’t set a person free. What a person needs in order to really be free is to interact with the Lord Jesus Christ allow Him really to identify the fuel from which that fire is emanating…
Sid: How would you like your city red hot for the Messiah? I don’t mean just your local church I mean your entire city. I mean how about well stretch your faith, how about your entire state? Well, stretch your faith how about the entire United States of America. Sound impossible? God says “All things are possible to those who believe.” I have on the telephone George Otis, Jr. the Head of the Centennial Group. I’m speaking to him at their offices in Lynnwood, Washington. They’re the producers of Transformation. George does investigative reporting of entire cities, or nations, that are being transformed. Not just a little revival here, a little outpouring and blessing there but entire cities that are transformed and changed. Well my question is, if entire cities and nations are being transformed by the fastest growing religion in the world called Islam, whose god is not even the same… of the same magnitude as the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob why can’t we believers that are true followers of the Living God have the faith to team up with God to pray this into being in our country? I mean do we have to just have a fatalistic type of view saying “Well, the United States isn’t mentioned in end time Bible prophesy it’s just going to be a third world country.” Or do we want to fight for our country, do we want to fight for our God, do we want to fight for our people? Well, George Otis says yes we can there are other countries that are doing this why can’t we. On yesterday’s broadcast we were talking about the nation of Uganda. George what happened there I mean most people know that you know the horrible situation the nation of Uganda was in with Idi Amin and it’s just the opposite today. Just real brief for those that are tuning in for the first time what’s it like today?
George: Well, Uganda’s not a perfect place and it’s important that we stress the fact that transformation is not a synonym of perfection but if you were to look at what Uganda was 20 years ago, 15 years ago and what it today you would be wondering if it was the same country. Uganda’s economy which had been broken and shattered to pieces during the conflicts under Idi Amin and his successor Milton Obote is now the third fastest growing economy in Africa. The HIV and AIDS epidemic which has been marching through the continent of Africa is being wrestled to the ground successful in Uganda today. We’re seeing church growth in this country that is absolutely off the charts. Just 1000’s and 1000’s of people coming into the kingdom of God. We’re seeing corruption political corruption being salted with great vigor. There’s even a new ministry there in the government called “The Ministry of Ethics and Integrity” headed by a woman named Miriam Matembe and I could go on and on and on about the things that have changed in that city. I know that the root of this is prayer; you will not find a country with more fervent prayer than Uganda. I went to back to back to back all night prayer meetings.
Sid: Now I know going to the former Soviet Union and Ukraine I see people that are willing to really pray all night.
Sid: I see people from which you’re telling from the nation of Uganda and in other countries that are willing to do it. I don’t see that much in the United States.
George: No as I said many times we’re not opposed to revival here we just want to pray for it in time slots that have already been set aside for religious observance. We are not willing to abandon ourselves to the process; we put up barrier around certain compartments of our life and we say “God you can speak to me on this side of the fence but not on that side, I will sit You on this room of my life but not in that one.” And in Uganda and up in the Canadian Arctic and in the city of Cali, Columbia, now in the nation of Fiji and Kiambu, Kenya in hundreds of other places where transformed revival is happening today people have place no limits on God. They’ve become so hungry, so desperate for the presence of God that they’ve abandoned themselves to the process. And as one Ugandan said “I’m going to seek the face of God and even if God doesn’t come I’d rather die seeking Him.” We are absolutely caught up in all kinds of lesser things with all kinds of shiny distracting toys in our western society. We’ve become as said a couple of days ago like the church at Laodicea and the church of Sardis that no longer realizes how far we’ve fallen off the mark.
Sid: But what’s going on now with the in the area of homosexuality, what is going on in the area of pornography, what is going on in the area of abortion, what is going on in the area of New Age, what is going on in the area of Islam invading our country. Isn’t that enough to cause people to say “Let’s lay down our differences and pray on a regular basis until God moves in this nation?”
George: Evidently, the unfortunate answer to that question is “No it isn’t.”
Sid: So what’s it going to take?
George: Well, there’s two ways that we can get desperate, one is by asking God to trouble us and to stir us into increase our appetite that are proven to attract his presence. The other way is that God in His mercy will trouble us from the outside through economic collapse, through removal of our peace or our prosperity so that we no longer have the same level of distractions that we had before. Now it doesn’t have to be that way, but if that comes we should understand that even if God isn’t causing these things He will allow them and He will allow them out of mercy to get us to the place where we will really call upon the one deliverer that’s capable of remedying our mess.
Sid: What happens with the dividing lines between denominations, dividing lines between charismatic and fundamental? In these other countries do these people come together and pray together?
George: You know I’m glad you asked that because one of the things that we have seen invariably in these transformation stories is a wonderful almost too good to be true unity amongst believers.
Sid: It’s got to be supernatural.
George: And it’s a… in the city of Cali, Columbia today we have one of the most marvelous examples of Biblical unity that you can imagine to the extent that a couple of years ago they had a large gathering of the people of God. The secular media came in to try to find, as Paul Harvey would say “The Rest of the Story” not believing that it was really this good. And when they couldn’t poke holes in the story they ended up with 4 full pages including the headline page in the cities newspaper El Pais talking about how the Christians in that city really loved one another. And I long for the day when I can pick up the Seattle times newspaper and read about the wonderful genuine extent of the unity of the Body of Christ there. We’re seeing the same thing in Fiji today where all of the denominations have come together under a kingdom umbrella called “The Association of Christian Churches in Fiji. And it’s Methodist, it’s Assembly of God, it’s Baptist, it’s Independent Charismatic all working in genuine affection and common cause realizing that they are one body and many members being jointly fitted together under the Head Jesus Christ to affect change. What happened in Fiji was interesting; the President and the great counsel of chiefs in that nation came to the Body of Christ and said “You know all of the problems that we’re seeing in our society the Ku De Ta and all of the economic problems, the violence; we believe that a lot of it stems from your disunity. And so the Church stung and chastened by this began to do a lot of soul searching “Why are these problems happening in our generation?” They pressed into God and realized that this was a prophetic word to them and they’ve gotten things taken care of and are now walking in genuine affection with one another. Most of us don’t know what real unity of Spirit is like we know only unity of faith or function which is more convenient than something that is rooted in a heart change. But God is capable of authoring this kind of supernatural unity it’s our inheritance and we need to walk in it and realize that pride is the main thing that keeps us a part.
Sid: What type of results are you getting from people that see the video “Transformation?”
George: Well probably within the first 6 months of the release of the first “Transformation Video” we had been contacted by about 1000 different towns and cities in the United States alone saying “We want to see this happen where we are.” Now we’re seeing this hunger spread all over the world, the videos have gone into 190 nations now; been viewed conservatively now by about 200 million people. And our ministry is modest in size and we are under, buried under many, many feet of snow. We have not been able as hard as we’ve been able to work to respond to the level of appetite, and hunger and interest…
Sid: I have Rabbi Jonathan Cahn on the telephone and he is revealing the mystery of the Shemitah, a Biblical mystery that’s been affecting our world, our lives. It’s actually been affecting us from the very beginning of our lives. We’ve seen how it’s determined the rise and fall of the economy, the stock market, the crash on Wall Street even 9/11 but Jonathan says it’s even bigger than that. Tell us about it Jonathan.
Jonathan: Yeah, this mystery its not only now in the economic realm has been affecting that, but just as in the Bible that this thing actually was manifested in the year 586 BC that during the Prophet Jeremiah when Jerusalem was wiped out; the cities are wiped out you know all of this happens. Because the Bible says that it is linked to this mystery of the Shemitah. And we’re going to see today, we’ll look at one mystery of that which is called the mystery of the towers. And this is it goes back to the tower of Babel and that is that Genesis 11 they say “Let’s build this tower and make our name great!” And in Hebrew the word for tower is Micdoul and that comes from a Hebrew word Godoul which literally means greatness. So towers are linked to greatness, their linked to power and so they’re actually linked to pride as well. But the connection the Bible is that towers are about man trying to be great but they can actually mark the rising of a nation or a power and it can mark the falling of a nation or power. And now could this apply to America this mystery of the towers? And could it be linked to the Shemitah? Well here’s the thing up until the…in the 18 century up until you know the latter part the tallest buildings, towers of the world were all in Europe. But there was a change, in the year 1870 comes the greatest, the tallest tower in the world that is it is the first sky scraper. It is built on America soil literally built in New York City. This is the first time America built the highest tower in the world 1870. Well, could that be linked to the rising of America? Well the amazing this is that same year is marked as the beginning of America’s rise as the great industrial tower in the world. And the very next year which is the year 1871America over takes the British Empire and becomes the greatest economy on earth which it really has changed history up to this day. And so it all begins so the ancient mystery in the Bible is that tower is linked to greatness or power. So it actually marked the rising of America. Now if you go on from there what happens is that America from then on is building the highest towers on earth. And it goes on as America gets powerful and more and more powerful in the 20th century it builds higher and higher towers. And when you get to the year 1930 and 31 you got this explorsion of towers; in this little period you have 4 towers that have the crown of the world’s largest, you know tallest building all in America. And the last one is the Empire State Building built in 1931. Well, here you have that going on as America is getting more powerful but at the same time the time that this happens is the year of the Shemitah. Now here it’s going to combine, you got the towers which are saying we’re getting higher and stronger it speaks about rising. And then you’ve got the Shemitah which speaks about humbling man, you know we’re not about pride, humbling and it speaks about falling and collapsing. Well, this mystery is going to go all the way up until our day because what happens is America after the war the Second World War it’s going to become the strongest, the greatest superpower on earth. And then in the same year that that happens 1945 they have an idea to build another tower. And this tower is going to represent America as the center of the world, it’s called the World Trade Center. 1945 is also the year of the Shemitah so here the world trade center, the towers are begun their conceived in the year of the Shemitah. They begin building it in 1966 it’s beginning, it happens to be the year of the Shemitah. It’s finished in 1973 which is the year of the Shemitah. It was built for 7 years, the 7 year cycle that’s the years of the Shemitah, the Biblical Shemitah which is about collapsing. And then finally moves forward and you get to 2001 and the tower is destroyed in the year of the Shemitah. What is the mystery of this thing? Well here is the thing is that again towers, now think about 911, towers are speaking of you know the nation is great, we are great we made a name for ourselves we are rising. But the Shemitah is humbling the nation, it’s speaking of collapse. In fact when you read in the Bible about the days of judgment you read again and again it speaks about the judgment about the high towers because God is humbling a nation. And so you have September 11th the tower collapse and at the same time Wall Street collapses. This is the 2 interesting mysteries of the Shemitah that not only are you collapsing the economic realm it’s literally collapsed towers. And so you have this happening at the same time and at the same moment the era where America was building the highest towers on earth comes to an end in the year 2000. And we have so far been eclipsed. So here now get to the prophetic, what does this mean. If the rising of the highest towers on earth speak of the rising of a power, a great power America’s rise what does the falling of the tower represent. Well what it would represent prophetically it’s a warning of the fall of America. And it’s a warning of not only the fall of the economy but of the American age as we know it. And on top of that all after 9/11 America said “We’re going to build yeah another tower and this time we’re going to rise higher and higher and this other tower that is still going up Sid and this is also linked to the mystery of the Shemitah, this tower is one of the harbingers of judgment. And it most likely will be finished in the Shemitah that’s coming upon us very soon.
Sid: Now what is happening at ground zero right now?
Jonathan: Right now this tower has eclipsed the tower that they’re building which and remember for those that know the harbinger or those that don’t this tower corresponds with what happened in the last days of Israel when Israel said “We’re going to rebuild higher and stronger after this attack.” And it ended up sealing their destruction. Well this tower at ground zero, this tower is being finished and it’s the same thing it said “We will rebuild, we’re going to grow stronger and bigger and higher.” And what’s happening is this is…it’s eclipsed the Empire State Building and it actually eclipsed the building on the date that was written in the Harbinger before it happened. So it’s really fulfilling this thing and that tower at that tower things have continued to happen some of the harbingers we spoke about that have continued since the book have happened concerning that harbinger. In a sense that’s the last of the 9 harbingers. It came into existence when America’s leaders on Capitol Hill actually pronounced this ancient vow of judgment, this is Isaiah 9:10 “That we will rebuild…” Well, it’s actually the epitome of this vow of defiance. And nobody know exactly when it will be finished but it could very likely be finished within this coming year which will mean that it will be the year of the Shemitah. I would…we were going to talk about the future I would keep my eyes on that because this is a tower of defiance and with Israel it actually brought destruction.
Sid: I have a question for you Jonathan. Do you feel almost like an Old Covenant prophet with the mystery of the Shemitah as you proclaim it?
Jonathan: Well, I feel…I just feel humbled by…
Sid: I know the humble business and I understand that but I feel you’re being just like an Old…you’re being like a Jeremiah. I mean the revelation you have no human could get that it has to come from God.
Jonathan: Well, I wasn’t looking for it Sid and I was literally standing at the corner of ground zero and when I saw one of these harbingers I didn’t know what it was and something said there’s a mystery there. And from that moment it was like everything was…I was led to see and find everything. I mean when I needed something the next thing was to happen somebody would say the word or something would appear. So I know…feel that this thing was being led and at every moment it was like when I started writing literally Sid the book wrote itself. I’d never written a book the Harbinger wrote itself. And now the Shemitah, by the way the Shemitahs just finished in a month and a half of doing it on the road it just happened the same way as “The Harbinger” it just came right through and I hardly had to do anything.
Sid: I really believe and if people don’t understand the message that you have “The Mystery of the Shemitah” and especially the combination of the teaching seminar that you did and we have an exclusive on it this is only place you can get these 7 CD series called “The Mystery of the Shemitah” it’s covering material not in the book. But you need the book so therefore we’re going to give it to you free. We’re going to give the book free to you if you buy this 7 CD’s teaching series which we have an exclusive on… Let me tell you the things that are not in the book that are in the series that are vital, you really need both of these. That’s why we’re bonusing the book to you. The sign and sealing of God’s judgment against America very precise the mystery of what’s coming to the world. The Elijah strategy, in order to stand in view of what’s coming; I mean you don’t even have to be a prophet to see how quickly America is deteriorating; I mean it’s deterioration right before our very eyes it’s so scary. I just read in the newspaper one of the largest mangers of a mutual fund in America said “What is going on with our Federal Reserve the decisions they’re making we were coming out of our recovery but now it seems that every decision is forcing us to go lower and lower we’re headed towards a big depression.” Everything is talking about this right now….
Sid: Jonathan in a nutshell what is the mystery of the Shemitah?
Jonathan: The Shemitah is a…was a 7th year that God gave to Israel and He said “You’re going to rest and it was just a Sabbath year on the last day of that year called Elul 29 if the Shemitah builds up to it’s climax and all financial counsel wipes away it’s like the great day of nullification Elul 29 everything is wiped away. Well, it’s to be a blessing but when Israel turned away from God what happens is the Shemitah becomes a key sign of judgment that is turned away from God. And what we are seeing is that this pattern that God gave has been actually or this mystery actually has been operating in all of our lives from the day that you were born and has affected our pocketbooks, it affected the economy, it has affected the stock market and has affected as we said “the rise and the fall of towers.” And we’re going to see in this one that it’s so big it’s affected the entire world and even has determined the rise and fall of towers, kingdoms, empires and is affecting the rise and fall of America.
Sid: Okay, give me some specifics.
Jonathan: Okay, well remember Sid to that in the Bible that we use the word, I mentioned the year 586 BC and that’s the year when this Shemitah comes as a judgment to Israel wipes away everything a time of Jeremiah. Well in order for that to happen it was Babylon that came and wiped the city away, Babylon had to rise as a empire. And then the Bible says that it’s going to last until Persia rises, because when Persia they take over Babylon and then the Jewish people return back to the land. So the Shemitah get what this means it’s even back then is affecting the rising of empires, the falling of empires. Now we’re going to just look at the last few in the modern time here’s the Shemitah. We are at the year 1917; now remember one of the things that it means is falling and it means shaking and it means collapse. And it could mean the collapse of nations; 1917 is a year of one of the greatest falls or shaking of the world, shaking of nations in world history it’s the first World War and the Shemitah means collapse like a power. What happens in that war the cause of the war you have the collapse of the German Empire the Second Rite, you have the collapse of the Austria-Hungarian Empire, you have the collapse of the Ottoman-Turkish Empire. That had been for centuries old and you have the collapse of the Russian Empire all of that happening in this same period and some of them are century old powers all collapse. And the key that really caused the war to end the way that it did and with at least 3 of the 4 collapses were 1917. Because that was the year that America enters the war and so 1917 is the year of the Shemitah. Not only is it the year of the fall of all of these powers but in a shaking of a world but it’s also a beginning of America’s rise to a world super power. When you look at the historian they’ll sight the year 1917 not because they know it’s a Shemitah but because that’s what it is. But because that’s the beginning that’s when America got on the stage and ended up from that war it became the greatest creditor our nation in the earth; it became the financial center in the world, shifted from Britain to America to New York City, it begins the America’s rise. So you got the falling of the nations with the Shemitah and you have the rising of the nations in the deal. So that’s 1. Now what happens if you go 4 Shemitah’s forward and I’ll tell you whenever it’s a 4 is the number 4 is linked to kingdoms, empires, the 4 kingdoms of Daniel, the 4 horns of Zachariah. If you go…
Sid: Then now, now excuse me when you say you’re going 4 Shemitahs forward that means 7 years 4 times is that what you’re saying?
Jonathan: Exactly, okay that brings you to the year 1945. What is that again the Shemitah, year of collapse, of shaking, what happens in 1945? You’re right at the peak of the II World War. The other global cataclysm we’re not just talking economies, we’re not just talking economies because this isn’t just affecting the economy it’s affecting the entire earth. And the thing is here you know and each time you have the wiping away of the powers, the wiping away of the kingdoms at each point. Well here’s the thing Hitler began his conquest of Europe in 1938 with attacking joining Austria to attacking Czechoslovakia. Well 1938 was the year of the Shemitah it goes for 7 years; that period went for 7 years it ends in 1945 so the entire thing begins and ends in the cycle of the Shemitah, the Holocaust. The fateful years is called 1938 the year of crstaloff and the first deportations. That begins in 1938 the year of the Shemitah, ends 1945 at the ending of the Shemitah. As you get to the end of II World War the entire earth is shaking now. Do you get the end it’s the summer of 1945 and the Shemitah is heading to its climatic end. Really speeds up to the end well what happens then is that you know it’s leading up to this day of nullification. Well in the month that it reaches to this day of wiping away the world enters the atomic days. The atomic bomb is dropped, you literally have the greatest power of nullification wiping away and coming to the end of the war. And the year up finally ends actually Japan says that they’re going to surrender August 15 and then they surrender on August 2nd with the very last week of the seven year period of the Shemitah as it builds to its crescendo and the armies the notorious armies have this parade, this precession celebrating the end and the day that they have it you know Russia, America, in Berlin the day is Elul 29 the very end of the Shemitah the 7th year period. In America this Shemitah brings America to the heights of it’s power, I mean it’s the most powerful nation really in history through the Shemitah. The entire world economic order is now begun in 1945 it’s called Britain Woods and it all centers around America. Well, here we have the height, we have the fall of nations and we have another rise of nations. What happens if we go another 4 Shemitahs that would be 7 periods, 4 periods of 7 — 28 years. And we end up in the year 1973. Shemitah means 3, Shemitah can mean the fall of a nation, this is a pivotal year in America because this is the year that America ruled the Supreme Court in January rules to basically to the killing of unborn children. Now for this sin basically Israel was destroyed. Well, it happens in January…
Sid: Now, just so people understand this Jonathan when you say Israel was destroyed they used to sacrifice babies to false gods which in affect wouldn’t the god of convenience be just equivalent to a false god? Which is why most woman have abortions?
Jonathan: Exactly Sid, I mean exactly that’s it. We are one of the Harbingers, one of the Shemitah’s is that we are retracing what Israel did in its days of destruction exactly. And that’s why 1933 is this turning point and also the same year 1933 America loses it’s first war in the year of the Shemitah it all happens it collapses. In Vietnam we lose our first war and by the way the date that we lost the last…Vietnam it was August 15 that was the anniversary of August 15th when we won World War II the same thing. And on the Shemitah and you know the year of the Shemitah.
Sid: Now out of curiosity Jonathan when we took prayer out of school was that connected to the Shemitah?
Jonathan: Yeah, well that was the setting of the stage that was the beginning of our early 60’s and begins this turning away from God step by step absolutely correct. But then when you reach this point that it’s led America to do exactly what Israel did and kill its own babies that becomes exact thing yes. And then that same year of that fall comes the World Trade Center is completed which is supposed to be a monument of how great America is it marks the years that America was killing it’s children. So it’s a shame at the same time it’s supposed to be a glory. And if you move one more cycle forward 28 years 4 Shemitahs you get to the year 2001 when again you have the collapse of that tower, you have this completion you have from America’s height in 1945 to its first defeat and then you have the enemy comes to American soil. These are warnings of what is coming and what’s happening Sid is that this mystery of the Shemitah is getting more and more intense, the last 2 Shemitah’s was 9/11 and the greatest collapse and then 2008 the other greatest collapse. It’s happening more precisely than ever before, it’s happening you know more intensely so therefore what that points to is we are in danger of judgment.
Sid: Okay, so that begs the question just a sentence or two what is the 7th Shemitah?
Jonathan: Okay and I think that we could do it tomorrow but I’ll just mention but there’s a whole other mystery but it’s all from the Shemitah. The 7th Shemitah leads into the Jubilee and so this mystery begins in the destruction of the temple in 70 AD and goes all the way to our day and they even point to what’s coming now.
Sid: I told you Mishpochah that when I got back from Israel I believe God has shown me something. I believe that there is going to be a wave, that’s what I’m going to call it, a wave of the Holy Spirit that’s going to have a major impact on the land of Israel. And when this wave hits there going to be young Jewish Israeli sabras, native born Israelis, that God is going to raise up that are going to be like Paul the Apostles just fiery evangelists and take that ancient mantle that was given to the Jewish people by God in the scriptures to be a light to the Gentiles. And these Jewish believers are going to take that ancient mantle and they’re going to turn this world upside down. I was so excited by what I saw, but I also found something out; when I was in Israel I visited with a friend of mine Bob Fischer in Tiberias and I read his book Full Circle. And in this book I found out things I had no way of every knowing that are in the Dead Sea Scrolls. So for starters Bob would you explain what the Dead Sea Scrolls are?
Bob: Yes Sid they were recordings of some of the books of the Bible and some of the theological understandings of a group of Jews that were called Essenes that lived in Qumran the shores of the Dead Sea. These were written down beginning in 250 BC all the way up to the time of Yeshua…
Sid: But because they were in a cave because many of them were miraculously preserved all of these years.
Bob: It’s quite amazing in fact they were found in 11 different caves between the period of 1947 and 1956.
Sid: Well the thing that I don’t understand is according to your book there are about 375 that are potentially very important manuscripts. But of the 375 that are potentially very important only 175 of them have been translated or even studied to any degree. Why is it taking so long?
Bob: Because Sid unfortunately they were discovered over a period of time at a very unorganized manner by one group of Arab explorers after another that happened upon them. And point of fact we don’t really know how many scrolls there are. These are the ones that are more or less accounted for, there were probably many others.
Sid: Something so important, so earthshaking literally for believers in the Messiah and non-believers alike some of the information that you put in your book “Full Circle” it’s so fascinating it’s almost unbelievable. I imagine that there must be a lot of other bomb shells in these Dead Sea Scrolls.
Bob: Absolutely, you know there’s something like that there were thousands literally thousands of fragments that turned to dust and blew away. There’s a story of one scroll that was bought by the Arabs that found it to a CIA agent in the American Embassy in Beirut, and I think it was Beirut. And they took it up on the roof and unrolled it and it was in a high wind. They were attempting to photograph this important scroll, or at least the potentially important scroll and the wind came along and blew off fragments of this thing. And so ultimately the thing was destroyed in the hands of an America CIA agent. You know of course he didn’t do it intentionally but these are kinds of tragedies that are associated with this. The pictures that were taken of the limited pieces of it have vanished forever also. So here’s a potentially vitally important document that just vanished. Well these things were battered about; they were in the hands of a number of secular and church organizations that were throughout the world. There’s little or no coordination with respect of their management, or their translation, or their handling…
Sid: Listen just what you know and you put in your book I’ve got to make my Mishpochah aware of them. On yesterday’s broadcast we talked about Judaism at the time that Jesus came into the body to earth was in basically 3 groups. There were and 2 of them we’re very familiar with one we’re not that familiar with. The Sadducees, the Pharisees we’re familiar with because they’re mentioned in the New Testament, but the Essenes most people are not that familiar with. The Sadducees as you explained only believe in the first 5 books in the Old Testament. They weren’t into the supernatural, they weren’t into life after death, and they were really the politicians of the day. They in fact the majority of the Sanhedrin the ruling body in Israel were members of the Sadducees. Then the second group you explained were the Pharisees. The Pharisees tell me, go over again a bit about them.
Bob: The Pharisees had an understanding of the God head that God was an indivisible unity and that He was involved in human affairs and was interested. But they certainly didn’t have a triune understanding like the Essenes had. But they also believed that the canon of scripture included the entire Old Testament. But in addition to they believed that the oral law that was written down in the form of the Talmud which is the whole oral law. And also later in the Mishnah which is an abbreviation of the Talmud. And equal weight is given to the oral law along with the written Torah. So this oral law was handed down in according to their understanding by God to Moses on Mt. Sinai. And they also had a view of heaven and hell. But a rather strange view, they believed in a reincarnation for those that were not righteous would have gone to heaven and those that were unrighteous would go to hell. And those in between some place would be given another shot at it through reincarnation through another body.
Sid: They also believed according to your book they believed that they’d be resurrected someplace near the temple in Jerusalem. And if they weren’t buried there really what they believed that they would roll under the earth so they could be resurrected. So they could be resurrected so they could roll under the earth from where ever they were to Jerusalem.
Bob: Yeah, so that accounts for the tremendous number of graves on Mount Olives you know it’s just one great big cemetery with grave and top of gravel And the reason for that is the belief system was that they would be resurrected but only from there, only from the Temple Mount.
Sid: Must be the most valuable real estate property in the world.
Bob: It is but they also believed that at the end of days at the time of resurrection that their bodies would literally roll along under the earth and ultimately arrive at the Temple Mount and be resurrected from that point along with everybody who had actually been buried there.
Sid: Okay, now where did they get this belief against the triune nature of God or the Trinity?
Bob: They just came up with it I would think that Rambam came later of course but Rambam codified the whole thing in his 13 principals of the Jewish faith, there’s 13 articles of the Jewish faith.
Sid: Well that’s where really got stuck but they came up with that you say even before Maimonides’s or Rambam.
Bob: Oh yeah they came up with that even before the time of Yeshua but it came to an organized belief system about the time of Yeshua.
Sid: Okay, now the ones that we really want to feature on this interview this week are the Essenes.
Sid: Now most people have never even heard of the Essenes; who were they?
Bob: Well let me get back to the reason why they haven’t heard of Essenes because the scriptures basically ignored the Essenes. There are 88 references in the New Testament to the Pharisees and 14 of the Sadducees and 62 of the Scribes which are probably either one of the 2 sects.
Sid: But you say that the majority of the Jewish people were part of the Essene group at the time of Yeshua.
Bob: Even though you know, even though the Essenes were first to embrace Yeshua; even thought there is amble evidence to show that they seamlessly transitioned into the first body of Jewish believers; Even though the Pauline theologies are written all over the New Testament that are really mere image of what Essenes believed and wrote about in their…
Sid: That was the most fascinating thing I read in your book. I mean I read things in your book that Jesus said in the New Testament yet they were dated pre-Jesus.
Bob: That’s right but even so, even despite all of these incredible things there’s not a single mention of the Essenes in either the Old or the New Testament.
Sid: And how come?
Bob: Or even a hint that they ever existed. I would have to say it was a supernatural interference of a spiritual nature. You know it was a spiritual thing, it was a spiritual warfare block. It was only for us to find out as we’re entering in the end of days the truth is being revealed in a progressive sort of way like an onion being peeled back layer, one layer at a time.
Sid: Here’s the thing Mishpochah these Essences had a Messianic expectation and Jesus fulfilled their complete expectation. And so as you point out in the book and I was never aware of it the majority of the first followers of Jesus came from the Essenes.
Bob: Actually all of the first followers of the Essenes, I say all but there’s obvious an odd 1 or 2. But the first 120 that we read about in the book of Acts were obviously Essenes, they were Nazarene Essenes.
Sid: Okay before Jesus came to earth what were their basic beliefs that caused them to recognize He was the Messiah?
Bob: Well they were… with respect to Messianic expectations let me get back to the basic belief system here to begin with. You know in the same way that we approach the Sadducees and the Pharisees let’s look at first of all their understanding of the Godhead.
Sid: By the way Bob has brilliant charts in his book comparing the three different groups within Judaism and what their belief was. Okay, go ahead now what does the Essenes believe?
Bob: God is from their point of view it was a clearly Triune God and the misunderstanding according to legend had been handed down as an oral tradition that had been given my Yahweh to Abraham as early as 1850 B.C.E. Now it’s well documented that this Triune understanding was being taught and extensively by the Rabbis’ in 515 B.C.E. and it was ultimately recorded in writing in 200 C.E. in at least 2 sacred books.
Sid: Now when you say C.E. that’s the same as A.D.
Bob: A.D. yes.
Sid: It’s so fascinating to see what the Dead Sea scrolls reveal in subjects such as predestination, grace, the Triune nature of God, the Trinity, the Deity of Jesus. What were the first followers like? Fascinating research that will put meat on the bones of much of what you read in the New Testament…
SID: Julie, I heard you share about, “gotta get higher”. I have to tell you, I’ve been a believer many, many years, but it impacted, it convicted me, and it is necessary for you. Tell me briefly about it.
JULIE: Yeah. I had an encounter with the Lord. It was during our renewal services in Kansas City, and I was actually out for four hours. This was not a dream. It was an encounter. But I went down and all of a sudden, two angels picked me up by my arms, and I could hear their wings. These had wings. And I could hear their wings going [grrrr]. And both of them, they were saying, “Gotta get higher, gotta get higher, gotta get higher”. And I could see like this open portal, like I could see what I would have thought Jacob might have saw. And but I was hanging there, and I was hanging there for a long time, and they kept saying, “Gotta get higher, gotta get higher”. And in a dream or an encounter you’re still you. I don’t know any more. And in this, I turned around and I said, “What’s the problem? You’re an angel. I’m not that big.” I just didn’t get it, you know. And suddenly, this very large, like 30-foot grabbed me from the back of my collar and pulled me up, so I’m dangling right in front of his face. And he said, “It’s not them, it’s you. You’ve got too many gates open. Your mouth gate, your eye gate, your ear gate, what you say, what you listen to, what you watch. If you want to go up, you gotta close the gates.” And suddenly I heard, “Bam! Bam! Bam!” And I shot straight up into this portal, and that’s where these angels were just having me eat the scroll, eat the scroll, eat the scroll, eat the scroll.
SID: You know, can you see why I got convicted. And you know what? To be convicted, that’s not the purpose, but to repent and change, that is the purpose.
JULIE: And it’s daily.
JULIE: I mean, it is a daily thing.
SID: Now Julie, you didn’t have a particular burden for the Jewish people and the nation Israel. But something happened to you that changed it all. Tell us about it.
JULIE: I had a dream and in the dream, Jesus took me, and he said, “I want you to meet my friends. If you know my friends, you’ll pray for my friends.” And I knew suddenly, as I looked around, I was in Jerusalem, and I was walking with Jesus, and I could see. I could see Yeshua. I could see his heart, his passion, his love for the Jewish people, but I could see at this time that they didn’t care and the brokenness of his heart. And suddenly in the dream, as we were walking, he began to look at certain people, and he would simply nod like that. And suddenly, that nod, it was appearing in my glory eye to eye and flesh to flesh. Suddenly, they saw him and I could see this awakening that they didn’t believe in Yeshua, but suddenly they did. He revealed himself. And they, there was a large group of rabbis. They were praying at the Wall. And he went up to this group and he looked at the rabbis one by one, and suddenly they saw him. Suddenly, they knew this is Yeshua.
[People chanting “Yeshua”]
JULIE: And they went up to their room, in this dream, and I was following them. In this dream, they went up to a high room and they were saying, “This changes everything! This changes everything!” And I knew that the day was coming, the hour was coming when the rabbis of Jerusalem would go up to the mountain of the Lord and shout out, “Yeshua is Messiah! Yeshua is Messiah! Yeshua is Messiah!” And that is the dream and I believe it.
SID: And I believe that now is that time. And in his name every knee will bow and every tongue will confess that Jesus is the Messiah and Lord. And if you have not bowed your knee to the King of Kings, the Messiah of Israel, the King of the Jews, the Lord of Lords, now is that time. You make Jesus your Lord. You confess with your mouth, I believe that Jesus died and rose from the dead, and because of his wounds, my sins are totally washed away. I am righteous. I am clean and now that I am clean, Lord Jesus, come inside of me. Take over my life. I make you Lord of my life. I want to know you better. I want to love you more. I want my life to count. I don’t want to be like that girl saw her parents in Hell. I want to be in Heaven, but I want to walk in Heaven on Earth. And the only way I can do that is to know you, make you my Lord, read the Bible, and be true to you, and Love God, and love my neighbor as myself, and I can’t even do that without your help. Help Jesus!
Sid: My guest I caught up with him in Richmond, Virginia but he lives in Israel with his family; wife and 5 children under age 10 Stan Goodenough. He was a newspaper reporter in South Africa; now he’s a news correspondent in Israel. Stan you’re in the media; I’m in the media; I have to believe that the biggest battleground for Satan is the media. Is the minds going into thehomes on the television, on the radio, going into the cars but it seems to be so biased, so wrong. Give me some examples of this and why is this going on.
Stan: I think that as you know especially Christians Sid who want to know and have an understanding of the times that we’re living in. If we take our information and base our prayer time even on what we hear just over the secular news media we’re going to be starting off on a false position and often from a biased and skewed position. I believe that you know there are events taking place in this world there’s a battle for the soul of the United States going on. And it’s very evident to me that a visit to this country. And I’m here with my family for one year of traveling around and speaking about what’s happening in Israel. But what we’ve seen here is this incredible battle going on for the soul of America. There is a very, very important battle going on right now for the church. The church is being divided between those that stand with Israel and those that side against her. And what you base yourself on as a Christian when it comes to an issue like the Middle East and Israel, I believe it should not be primarily the secular media because they set the tone and they are overwhelming. They have the dollars, they have the huge networks and the way of coming across that just affects hearts and minds in millions around the world. They are responsible more than any organ or any other mechanism; the media is responsible for the anti-Semitism that is igniting in different parts of the world today and for the negativity against Israel. Christians need to know where they’re getting their information from and if they can find a Christian source to provide their information they should to there. Because at least then they’re hearing from a brother or somebody else who believes in the Lord. This is happening and I’m sure they come and listen to you Sid.
Sid: You know I have a question for you according to most of the poles that I’ve seen for president the democrats and the republican candidates are running neck and neck. It’s going to be just like the last election; you’re not going to know until the last minute. I happen to believe the deciding vote will be whether President George Bush sides with Israel of sides with land for peace. Would you agree?
Stan: I’m not sure that I would prophesy that Sid but I would certainly agree to this that by standing against Israel President George W. Bush can only be doing detriment and doing… it’s detrimental to his position and to his future politically. It must be detrimental; we’ve seen the experience of his father what he experienced when he turned against Israel. And I fully believe, I do not necessarily believe that if he doesn’t do a 180 degree turn right now on land for peace that he would lose the coming elections. But I think that his ability to affect and to be used by God in powerfully for the United States going forward will be directly affected by whether he makes that turn. And it will have to be a 180 degree turn because he has personally, in his words, personally committed himself to dividing up the land of Israel.
Sid: Okay, I have to ask you this “Do you believe his father lost the presidential election because of his stand on Israel?
Stan: I would say “Yes.” I would say that was very….
Sid: Okay, I’m going to rest my case on that Stan.
Stan: Hmm, hm.
Sid: Let’s go back to what’s going on with Islam worldwide; they are growing so rapidly I don’t know if you know this or not but they’re going to United States Universities. Going to the President and say “We would like to establish a (it sounds good) a school of Islamic Studies, we will build the building, we will get you the faculty and we will pay their salaries; would you like this asset?” And of course they say? “Yes.” I mean, could the Islamic strategy be the same in the United States of America as it is in Great Britain?
Stan: I think their strategy is the same all over the place. They go in normally showing a humanitarian phase, a phase of academics or of social services. And that’s how they establish their network; they do the networking like that. And people sign up and people support them. And in this way in terms of the United States and making this offer to the officials in the United States the Islamic will in a way puts the US in its debt because they are indebted to the Islamic movement behind this college or behind this education Institution because it’s all been given to the United States free of charge. And suddenly somebody has actually been bought and the Islamic world is very well known for calling in its debts. And I think that Saudi Arabia has quite a strong influence in the White House because of debts that it has. But it believes that Americans have to it because in terms of all kinds of things. It’s paid for scholarships for upcoming Congressman and it’s done all kinds of things, and it’s all good on the face of it. But it’s a very devious and dark motive behind it and that is to take the United States for Allah and that’s what they’re after and they believe they’re going to do it Sid.
Sid: Well I believe that unless we take God’s word seriously and unless we fast and pray for. Now by the way where it says in scripture “Pray for the peace of Jerusalem.” We don’t have to understand it; we’re just commanded to do this and that’s the only place in the world that we’re told specifically to pray for the peace of. But what do you think that really mean, what are we praying for when we’re praying for the peace of Jerusalem Stan?”
Stan: The scripture goes “Pray for the peace of Jerusalem.” And then it stops and it opens in various comments, or in quotation marks and it says “They shall prosper that love thee.” We should pray for Jerusalem that those who love her will prosper because they’re more and more love her and support her.” That’s how the Psalms describes it. And I fully believe that when we pray for the peace of Jerusalem we are not praying for the success of land for peace process, we’re not praying for the success of the Madrid or the Oslo agreements.We are praying for the peace that only God can bring; only the Messiah can bring. To come and come quickly to that land; we know that it’s going to happen. And I believe that’s what we should be praying for. Jesus gave us the same words, when He said pray “Your kingdom come, Your will be done on earth as it is in heaven.” But the coming of His kingdom and the setting up of His kingdom in Jerusalem peace will come.
Sid: And I heard your teaching recently on Isaiah Chapter 62 verse 67 “On your walls Jerusalem I have appointed watchmen all day and all night; the will never keep silent; you who remind the Lord give Him no rest, give Him no rest until He establishes and makes Jerusalem a praise on the earth,” comment.
Stan: We all watchmen on the wall if we are tuned into what’s happening Jesus gave us that command, we are watch and pray. Watch first so that we can pray and know what we’re praying into. We are watchman on the wall, we see the enemy coming, we know what God’s plan is for Israel if you know the word, you know what His plan is for Jerusalem. What His plan is for the Jews, what His plan is for us. We’ve been grated into the olive tree. We know His plan and we see the enemy coming, we see him rising up like a cloud like a dark cloud covering the land. And as he comes and he descends and he prepares to destroy Jerusalem, to destroy Israel is what the enemies of Israel is really trying to do. We see it coming and we can pray “Lord, prevent this and remember your word.” And we can remind God of all of the promises He made. “That you’d bring them back and you’d settle them in the land and you’d root them there and you’d plant them there and you’d watch over them to do them good. Those are your words God, those are Your promises, remember them, remember them, remember them.” That’s what we do as watchman.
Sid: You know Stan, you made the comment that many Israeli’s feel that in 50 years there will be no Israel. There’s such a sense of hopelessness there, such pressure. What will this hopelessness and this pressure cause to happen in Israel in your opinion?
Stan: Right now it seems to me that they looked everywhere; they’ve looked first of all around them at Egypt and they’ve tried to lean on Egypt and to trust in Egypt and they still tend to do that because it’s fighting to watch because Egypt is so dedicated to peace, still dedicated to peace partner or not to Israel’s destruction. And then they’re looking to the west and specifically to the White House and they’re looking to America to stand with them and support them. And when America lets them down as America has done, not always but has done; then they flounder around they don’t know who to turn to. Well, God’s calling on them to turn to Him, he doesn’t want them to turn first of all to United States, He wants them to turn first of all to Him. And He’s waiting like the father of the prodigal son He just waiting to see that turn, that change and He’s going to come and embrace there. I really believe that.
Sid: Stan I can’t think of a better time to be sharing the love of God, the love of the Messiah without limitation on secular media than right now. I can’t think of a better time. See I think that Germany is going to turn horrifically anti-Semitic; it’s already but turning even worse anti-Semitic. I think all of Europe is going to do this. Obviously all of the Middle East is going to do this. And even here in the west with the Islamic stronghold that’s being the beachhead that’s coming here in the west; they’ll be no place. We must get the message out to Jewish people the doors are open for me in a supernatural fashion.
Sid: God has a strategy, the strategy is we show a miracle we demonstrate a miracle and that demands the attention of the audience. I have to tell you I’m really getting upset over the amount of time devoted on Christian radio and Christian television for vitamins and alternative medicine. It seems as if the emphasis is there as opposed to the supernatural of God. So you can understand why that upsets me; however I recently got a hold of two books by a Doctor, Dr. Ray Strand. One book is called “What Your Doctor Doesn’t Know About Nutritional Medicine May be Killing You.” The other book is called “Death by Prescription.” This is the most balanced approach, I mean there is a great deal of confusion about vitamins, about herbs, about eternal medicine, about diets. And you’re going to be outraged when you hear some of these things because you know though God will protect you when you take poison there are many people that don’t have their faith at that point. And there’s a lot of medicine out there that’s literally killing you. And so I have on the telephone Dr. Ray Strand. Ray you were telling me before we went on the air the number 3 cause for death in America. Would you tell me that again?
Ray: Well, the number 3 cause of death in this country is medication. And people are not aware of it. In fact Sid, if you take properly prescribed properly administered medication it is causing over 100,000 deaths each and every year and that would make it the fourth leading cause. If you add the improperly prescribed medication or taken medication it adds another 80,000 deaths each and every year. So it becomes the 3rd leading cause of death in this country.
Sid: And you understand this better than me but I was raised as a child when I would go to the doctor anything that they would say that was truth, that’s I would do. I wouldn’t contest it; I wouldn’t go for another opinion; whatever my doctor told me. But then as I got older I recognized that there was a lot of guess work going on. And you make a statement in your book that I want to quote “That we cannot rely on doctors we must do our homework.” Give me an example as to why this is true.
Ray: Well, the main thing is the fact that when the FDA releases a drug to the market to be used by the people that are in your listening audience they know less than half of the serious adverse direct reactions. The way that they find out the others is what I call “The great clinical trial” which is you the patient. So even if the doctor is knowledgeable on everything; which most of us only know the major drug reactions. What happens is the way we find out all the others is when people start using this in large quantities, then we find out the other adverse drug reactions. And so every drug has an adherent risk and so you need to become familiar with what they do know and at least conscious of the fact that jeepers you could react to any medication the doctor prescribes. It’s not that he’s doing things wrong it’s just the nature of medicine itself.
Sid: Now you talk in your book in the introduction of the book “Death By Prescription.” You talk about a young child named “Heidi.” Tell me about Heidi.
Ray: Well, Heidi was a daughter of a neurologist that I practiced with in Rapid City here, and his daughter came in with pneumonia. And Heidi actually had a severe atypical pneumonia and we gave her a drug called Erythromycin; this was the proper one. But we also gave her a little Tylenol to keep her fever down. Well, about 3 days into treating her pneumonia her liver enzymes started to rise dramatically. And of course I was a younger doctor then and Dr. Savo is a gentleman’s name we realized that things were wrong and so we cut off the medication realizing this could be a problem. And we had to air ambulance her up to the University of Minnesota Children’s Hospital. While I was there that they said that she had an allergic reaction to the Tylenol and it was causing liver damage. And this was a real shock for me as a young doctor and dealing with my first real serious adverse drug reaction.
Sid: Tell me about in the first chapter you talk about Cynthia.
Ray: Well, this is a gal who actually it was not a patient of mine I knew her from other sources. But she actually had been prescribed some actual hormone replacement therapy because she’s going through menopause and experiencing hot flashes. And actually wasn’t too bad, but the doctor had actually promoted it to her as a situation where she actually felt that it was going to prevent heart attacks and strokes and help maintain her bone density. And about 7 months after being on this hormone replacement she suffered a heart attack. And everything else checked out fine, but in the end the cardiologist kind of told her that he thought she suffered the heart attack at age 49 because of the hormone replacement therapy. And that’s what the literature’s now showing us. This happened several years ago but now we’ve had 2 major studies come out last summer showing that actually hormone replacement therapy increases the risk of heart attack and stroke in our woman. And it does not decrease it and they’re basically recommending that we don’t use hormone replacement therapy for long term prevention of chronic diseases. Now if you need it to get through the menopause sometimes we have to use it. Of course, I like natural hormones but that was Cynthia’s story.
Sid: In your book “Death By Prescription,” there’s another sacred cow, the FDA and you explain who few American’s understand what the FDA does and why it’s so important; and why there maybe some financial ulterior motives. I wonder if you would explain that.
Ray: Well the FDA obviously is the Food and Drug Administration and they’re there to protect us and make sure that what we eat and what we take in medication is safe or as safe as possible. But what happened is that the FDA was very very strong in protecting us and in fact the statistic that hit me as a doctor was the fact that before 1990 of all the drugs release worldwide to the public only 4% of those drugs were first released in the United States. Well, this bothered a lot of people we had the AIDs epidemic, we had cancer patients who wanted a lot of the drugs that were in other counties but not ours. So there’s a lot of pressure on Congress to get our drugs approved quicker and faster and more frequently. So they past the User Fee Act in 1992 which made the pharmaceutical companies pay a fee to the FDA to get their; you know help get their drugs approved. Well, that user fee then created what I call the deadly partnership. In other words, the group that they’re supposed to be protecting and actually monitoring is actually now supplies over 50% of the budget for the FDA. So over half of the budget of the FDA comes from the pharmaceutical industry through these user fees. So if I want to get a drug approved by the FDA and I’m a pharmaceutical company I have to pay; originally it was a quarter million dollars, $250,000 was paid to the FDA to get your drug approved. Since that time now over 60% of all of the drugs released now worldwide are first released in the United States. And the number of drugs being approved has accelerated; it used to take an average of 24 months to get a drug approved by the FDA that dropped down to 12 months and they have a rapid, what they call a fast track method of getting drugs approved. And you can get drugs approved within 6 months. And so it’s totally changed how the FDA looks at things. It used to be the FDA used to say “Should this drug be approved for use by the public?” Now, the attitude seems to be “How can we get this drug approved to be used by the public?” And so it’s a real change in the FDA and the way that they approve our drugs and they protect us and our safety.
Sid: But you in your book “Death By Prescription” that’s a pretty shocking title. But I mean the average doctor if they see your cholesterol numbers are wrong will give you medication. And the average doctor if they see your blood pressures a little high will give you medication. You’re pretty negative on this medication.
Ray: Well you know Sid I want to make a statement. I really believe medication is very, very important; it has saved a lot of lives, it has helped a lot of people But I think that we need to adopt an attitude to use medication as a last resort not a first choice. And what you’ll find is all almost the top 7 or 8 killers of us, you know the leading causes of death in the US and the western world is the result of a lot of our lifestyles. In other words, you take diabetes, heart disease, cancer, cholesterol, high blood pressure, osteoporosis; all of these really major diseases are strongly related to patient’s lifestyles. So if people would just improve their lifestyles…
Sid: Now you’re saying that but I have to tell you I look at all the different diets that are all contradictory, one contradicts the other. I look at all the different claims on the various vitamins, I look at all the various claims on the various medication and I have to tell you doctor it’s confusing out there.
Ray: Well and you’re right Sid and the more you learn the more confused you get and I guess that’s where I feel I would like my role to be is to try to look at the medical literature and give a practical common sense solution that anybody can do whether they’re traveling, eating at home or whatever. And this is where the truth is because there’s too much hype and none of the diets work. And none of them are really all that healthy and people gain the weight back. What I try to promote are healthy lifestyles and just happen to have a side-effect of fat loss, but at the same time you decrease your blood pressure, you decrease cholesterol; you decrease your risk of heart disease and diabetes. And this is where people need to be going because that’s the true preventive medicine.
Sid: I’ll tell you what we’re out of time; we’ll pick up right here on tomorrow’s broadcast.
Sid: We want everyone everywhere to be so excited about the Messiah, not this 21st Century American version of Christianity. I’m talking about Bible belief; I’m talking about intimacy with God. I’m talking about greater intimacy with God then what people have with their churches. As a matter of fact that’s about what their intimacy with God is; is their intimacy with their church. But there’s something so much better; don’t limit God. You can have the same intimacy with God that everyone that you read about in the Bible has. It’s available right now, it’s being poured out right now; do not settle for mediocrity; do not settle for tradition. There is reality and my heart’s desire is for you to have the same encounter with God that I have had. To have the same encounter with God that Akef Tayem had. Akef is a Palestinian Arab born Palestinian in Haifa, Israel. But when Israel became a nation in 1948 his family who is a wealthy family, prosperous family there moved to the Island of Cypress. He and all of his brothers got scholarships to U.S. Universities. He went to University; a Christian woman started witnessing to him. Talked about miracles, as a Muslim he never thought this was possible. He wanted to prove that this guy was a fake, a charlatan. So he went to a tent evangelist meeting and he saw a miracle he couldn’t deny. Then he accepted the Lord; disowned by his family, and he was going through hard times because of… it was very tough he was struggling with a lot of things. He believed in Jesus; he could not deny it but he was just plain struggling and he found himself at a little country church. What happened Akef?
Akef: Well, this is really a little embarrassing to me and I didn’t share this with hardly anyone but my close family because it made absolutely no sense for me to do what I did. I’m usually… I mean I have my senses together, I’m logical but I did end up in a small church in the woods in Birmingham, Alabama. I wanted to be by myself; I wanted to understand what happened to me. I accepted Jesus because of a miracle I’d seen my family disowned me. They wanted nothing to do with me. After a few attempts my brother said “I just give up, and he’s very nice; he really tried but I just could not go back on that. So the minister told me I’m welcome to stay there. There was like I said “It’s in the middle of the woods and I started taking straws because I had nothing else to do into the woods and I had the Bible and the Koran; I was trying to see what’s going on. I quit my job of course; and I was without any money, without any resources whatsoever but somehow that did not matter to me. The other things, my relationship with God. What happened is I had absolutely no desire for food, I mean I did not go on a fast. I mean I did not plan a fast; I just was not hungry for some reason. And I didn’t eat for quite some time; and I remember a gentleman that I found out later his name would leave me two gallons. Because there was no running water there. They had a well, but the well didn’t… the water in the well was not really drinkable. And so someone would leave me 2 gallons of water by the door of the church. They would leave it on Wednesday night and Sunday; when they had meetings. And after quite some time I don’t know exactly how many days; I figured later it to be 38, 40, 42 I…
Sid: Weren’t they a little worried about here this guy is camping out on their grounds.
Akef: Well, what happened is after maybe 2 weeks; 2 ½ weeks, or so, I started being too weak to come up to the church. The Pastor told me that there is a river and they gave me directions in the forest where there’s running spring water in it. Which I never found but they told me it is there. So I guess they assumed I did have water and I asked them to just leave me alone and they respected that.
Sid: So what happened next?
Sid: I mean you’re fasting; I mean you must have been pretty weak. You weren’t eating anything for about how long?
Akef: Well, I went I figured it to be like I said between 37 to 38 to 40, 42 days. I was so weak at the end that I was. Matter of fact I found an interesting thing, I wish I could draw that but it was a white rock in the middle of the… it was a rocky area and this rock looked like a chair or a day bed and that’s where I ended up most of the time. I became so weak I could hardly walk.
Sid: You must have been in really turmoil not to be able to eat. You weren’t fasting you just had no desire for food.
Akef: No. I had no desire for food and I use to read; when I would read the Bible I would read it loud. It was so quiet there that I wanted to hear my voice so I would read it loud. And then after some time when I opened my mouth to speak it it would tear my skin.
Sid: Because you were so dehydrated.
Akef: So dehydrated I would feel the blood start coming down so. I stopped doing that. And then my hands between my fingers, if I opened by fingers the skin would crack like parchment. So and when I started seeing this I realized there’s something wrong. I said “This is ridiculous; now I got to get out of here; I have to get out of here or I won’t make it.” Then I was too weak too weak to walk. And I remember it was… I remember praying to God because I was losing my sight. Now I’m not going blind but things would get dark for a little bit and then I’d see the sun and pray. It looked like I was trying to pass out or something so. But I wanted water; I wanted water so bad and I remember asking God and praying. I said “Lord, water I need water.” And I looked and my only hope of course was rain. And I looked up in the sky and there’s not a cloud in the sky; there was just nothing there. Next thing I know is that I’m about 8 – 10 feet in the air. And I’m looking down and I see this individual who is laying on a rock.
Sid: Wait a second; you’re telling me that you’re spirit left your body?
Akef: Now I know then I didn’t.
Sid: So okay you were about 8 or 10 feet in the air… I’m just trying to catch this and what did you see?
Akef: I looked down and I see this young man laying a rock. There’s a Bible next to him; I see that the Bible is open. There’s a book next to him and I don’t recognize him. I don’t know that it was me; I don’t self in so long.I remember that he was so weak
Akef: He was so weak, he was so skinny and there was blood; there was blood around his lips; brown. Blood around his hands and I remember feeling sorry, and asking “What is this?” I didn’t know what was going on.
Sid: Did you realize that it was yourself that you were looking at?
Akef: The next thing I know is I’m going up into towards the sky. And I remember it was dark. And I’m going up and as I’m going up there was one issue that puzzled me more than anything and I still don’t understand the relevance or what. But I remember trying to touch my hand and my hand, my fingers would go through me. And I couldn’t understand that, I kept going on and I’m saying “Why am I so light, why am I so light?” There was no substance, and it fascinated me later on of all the things I could be worried about you know of what I left behind, my family this was what was really… but anyway I kept on going through this space dark space. And then I recall coming through a lit area. There was bright light but I didn’t stop for some reason; I went through it. And then there was darkness again. Then there was light, darkness, and then the third light and I didn’t know at the time anything. About pulse, you know. But I know that the third light… lit area I stopped.
Sid: So that’s what Paul was calling the third heaven I believe.
Akef: Yes, but…
Sid: But you didn’t know it from borscht. Okay go ahead.
Akef: No, that’s right and then I stopped; the third lit area. And there was nothing there there was just myself and I was standing on what seemed to be like wool. It had no substance; and I realized that I was standing on it because of course I had no substance either. Otherwise I would fall through it or something to that effect. And then I’d seen a form of someone; a figure of someone began to take shape. Maybe like 10 feet away from me or so. And it’s amazing but somehow without anyone telling me I felt it was Jesus. And this form began to approach me and He came about arm length from me. I remember Him saying “Touch Me.” Now what’s important is I didn’t see the color of His eyes, I don’t know the color of His skin, it was like a silhouette. And He said “Touch Me.” And I reach my right hand towards His side; it was His left side. And I remember my fingers went inside Him like a ¼ of an inch or so because He was hollow too. And the minute my hand touch Him was back on the rock again and it was pouring rain.
Sid: (Laughing) You had been praying for rain.
Akef: It was pouring rain.
Sid: Akef, we’re out of time; pick up right here. Mishpochah you…it’s almost unbelievable what happened to him next.
Sid: I’m talking to someone right now; you were baptized in the Holy Spirit 20 years ago. You spoke in unknown tongues; you had your first love. You read the Bible every day; if there were 8 services going on in a day you would run to those 8 services. You had an insatiable appetite for the things of God, but as time went on you prayed for a few people and they didn’t get healed; you stopped praying in tongues. You became a spectator; you might have even been teaching Sunday School but things are booor-ing [emphasis intended]! And you’re just wondering “Is there something more?” I have on the telephone Tim Enloe I’m interviewing him on his latest book and it’s brand new it’s almost off the press. It’s called “Want More.” So what would you say to that person Tim?
Tim: Well, first of all I believe that we do a great disservice to the Holy Spirit almost an insult in not depending on Him. You know I want to challenge those that have… or are in that situation an area that you just mentioned their just living in status quo Christianity. And their saying “Life if just happening and when something really bad happens I’ll really commit it to prayer but otherwise I’ll just accept the status quo as being God’s will.”
Sid: And you know what I think that position is backslidden and don’t even know it.
Tim: Oh certainly they’ve lost their first love and they need to remember that the height and repent and come back and do the things that you did as first. Getting back in repentance and heart searching and calling on the Lord, no doubt. But in those cases you see one of the things that we need to recognize about the Holy Spirit is that perhaps we make the mistake many times of recognizing or reconciling that our present reality is God’s intended best for us. Well why in the world would we ever want to make such a foolish mistake? We know that He is exceedingly able to do far above anything that we could ever ask or imagine according to the power that is at work within us, the power of the Holy Spirit. And I want to encourage those that have received the Baptism in the Spirit and had kind of gotten complacent in their hearts and haven’t had an avenue of ministry. The easiest way to get those jumper cables from heaven on your earlobes again. The easiest way for God to hit you with His Holy Spirit defibrillator and give you a fresh charge is for you to get in a place that demands the anointing of the Holy Spirit flows through your life. Get in over your head and cry out help to God; get around someone that’s sick and instead of trying to give them 20 minutes of counseling and 1 minute of prayer. Give them a half hour of prayer only and cry out to God. Pray in the language of the Spirit; tell God your desperation and get in over your head. When we begin to recognize that it’s not by our might or our wisdom or our power but it’s by His Spirit and truly convictedly believe that in our hearts. It begins to magnifies the Spirit of God to come down upon the circumstances; God never flows through the wisdom of men He flows in a different trend of wisdom the mysterious wisdom Paul talked about in Corinthians chapter 2 the wisdom of the Spirit of God, His empowering, His glory, His work. And when we get into a circumstance over our head I believe the siphon down the power and presence of the Holy Spirit.
Sid: Tim, what about the person that their whole life they have heard that tongues is not for today. What would you say to them?
Tim: Well I would challenge them to read their Bible; it’s very easy to accept teaching from very good, and I might add godly people. But people that they themselves have been indoctrinated that tongues is not for today. But thankfully that’s an ever shrinking corner of Christianity even among scholars. Certainly in the evangelical world it’s a very shrinking perspective. But to understand that the Bible does not teach that the Bible tells us that one of the great scriptures that the sensationalists used beginning with B.B. Warfield back with his counterfeit miracles book at the turn of the past century. He said that “It’s clear that tongues shall cease 1st Corinthians 14 “When that which is perfection has come. And he said “Well, certainly I would image that perfection to be the Bible being concluded; the Bible being written; the end being put on the end of John’s revelation of Jesus. But we understand from scripture that Paul is not talking about that at all when you read that. He’s looking forward to an eschatological conclusion when we’re with Jesus forever in heaven, tongues will be stilled, prophesy will cease.” There will be no need when we’re in heaven with Messiah. There’s no even need for a temple there; no even need for a sun because the Lord is there He is the light. The Lamb is the light.
Sid: Tim you used the words sensationalists in other words people that believe that the gifts have stopped. In your book you tell us a story of a couple that accidentally came to one of your meetings that thought that way. What happened to them?
Tim: Well this was again a couple trained and raised from knee high to a grasshopper trained and raised in a sensationalists church. Again a good godly pastor absolutely no doubt about that; people being born again. But when it came to this openness of the things of the Spirit they said “Basically they’ve said “I haven’t experienced it yet so it must not be true; which is a terrible error; a fatal error to me.” They came to the service not realizing that they were having a kooky guest like myself into the pulpit that day and a that that moment they wanted to get up and leave but they were sitting too close to the front. And by the end of the service they both found themselves walking to the front and praying to receive the baptism in the Holy Spirit evidence by speaking in those unlearned languages that the Bible promised. And they both found themselves very easily experiencing the presence and the glory of God like they both testified they had never experienced before, and then speaking this new language. And of course I always encourage people after they begin to speak in that language to trust God to guide their known language in the same miraculous way. That afternoon as they pulled out of church Brother Sid, they made a right out of church and then a left on the main road. And about ½ mile down there was a car with a hazard lights blinking on along side of the road. It was a young single mom full of a car load of kids there. And she was broken down and they stopped and the wife looked at the husband and the husband looked at the wife and said “Already?” And he called the tow-truck and they sat in their car there and they decided to drive them home. And he was going to wait with the car until the tow-truck to get there because the kids needed to go home; total strangers. And as the wife newly baptized in the Spirit the wife was driving this young single mom and these kids to their house before they even pulled into the driveway she had already led them to the Lord. They were praying with her; they couldn’t believe this divine opportunity from God. And if that weren’t the clincher that night this lady laid hands on a young boy and born cross eyed and he had had 7 unsuccessful operations to cure this cross eyed condition. Laid her hands upon him not only… again she didn’t believe in miracles she was a little convinced about the baptism of the Spirit thing because she had experienced it. But now she laid hands on this young boy born cross-eyed 7 unsuccessful operations the moment her hands touched him his eyes straightened out. And he screamed out “Mom, I don’t see funny anymore.” And what a testimony service we had that night, not only from this lady who was laying aside sensationalism but she had picked up the now anointing that had already resulted in several people being born again in her life as she shared Christ with them, and now miracles taking place.
Sid: Now this is not unusual Mishpochah every time that Tim shares in these areas either people that were baptized in the Holy Spirit get it activated. Or those that haven’t get baptized in the Holy Spirit they literally get a refreshment, they get their first love back. Tell me another quick story of someone that heard your teaching, sat under the anointing and what they did.
Tim: One of my very favorites is one of a minister, a credentialed minister, with a sensationalist denomination and he accidentally got into our services as well. And I always tell people “Listen I’m not going to present an argument. I don’t believe the Holy Spirit blesses arguments the Holy Spirit blesses when you talk about Jesus.” So I just presented Jesus as the baptizer in the Holy Spirit that perhaps there are some that have never encountered Him. They’ve encountered Him as the Savior, they’ve encountered Him as the deliverer, and certainly the Messiah and all that contains and they’re looking forward to Him as the coming King but they have not experienced in the way that John prophesied. The forerunner said that “He would baptize you in the Holy Spirit and fire” and they had not experienced that yet. This gentleman came forward and he was still very unconvinced but he said “It’s true Jesus I don’t think I’ve experienced You as the baptizer so I know I’m safe asking Jesus for something. He wasn’t sure about asking the Holy Spirit for something, he said “I know I’m safe asking Jesus.” And he went forward and as he began to pray all of a sudden the Holy Spirit came upon him and all of a sudden he found this beautiful interior river beginning to break-loose out of his inner most being. And he found himself suddenly speaking in a language in which he’d never understood before. And he came to me after-wards and he said “You have ruined me.” And I said “I didn’t do it I don’t know what you are talking about. (Laughing) He said “How in the world am I going to explain this to my denominational officials? I came here totally convinced against this,” but he said that “As I began to ask Jesus to show Himself to me as the baptizer in the Holy Spirit He said my guard is down because I love Jesus with all my heart.” He said “Today for the first time in my life I know that this is real and that it’s a gift that comes from Jesus He’s the baptizer.”
Sid: You know in your book you state that you feel that this next move of God’s Spirit is going to hit non-charismatic denominational churches. I actually have more faith for them than the charismatic churches that have got it and have buried it in the ground.
Tim: Well, I really believe that too, the exception of that is the young generation that God is raising up in the Pentecostal and the Charismatic Churches that are dissatisfied with form without power. That is not an acceptable model for church living, is it? And the young generation is raising up saying “Hey, wait a minute we believe all this stuff why don’t we see it?” And there is a new rekindled passion that perhaps their parents and grandparents had laid aside many years ago. But I truly…I’m with you if you gave me someone that was born and raised in a Pentecostal Church and has heard about the baptism of the Spirit all their life as Case A and someone that was just born again and delivered from demons and drug addictions as Case B, and you said pick one for the baptism of the Holy Spirit I’d run right to the….