Sid: I’ve got a man that’s red hot for the Messiah I’m speaking to him at his office in Tulsa, Oklahoma, Dave Roberson, he’s Senior Pastor of Family Prayer Center there. And I’ve had Dave as guest several times on the Messianic Vision because as a big believer he found out about the supernatural edification that comes from praying in tongues. And literally decided that was his job when the factory whistle would blow he would go to his prayer closet and he’d take his lunch break just like the factory people and then he’d go back to prayer. And he did this as a lifestyle when most people go to work and found that his spirit man started growing and growing and that he was passing many people that had started out the same time as him because of the time that he spent praying tongues. However he found there were certain ceilings in his life. There were certain problems in his flesh that just weren’t getting changed from day to day and month to month and even to year to year. And God led him into something for him which was new which revolutionized his life which is why I’m asking him to share on this is that many of you have ceilings in your life. You’re kind of stuck at one level and you’ve never gotten beyond that and many of you are not having your prayers answered. Many of you know that you don’t have the intimacy with God that you want. And you want all of these things but it’s just not happening and I believe what Dave was led into is going to revolutionize your life. Dave how did you find out about this supernatural way of moving into new levels with God?
Dave: Sid it’s good to be back on your program I can feel the Holy Ghost so strong all ready that it gives me it gives me a joy that I can’t even explain and a peace. And as a result of being hungry for God in the early days I was 30 years old and the hunger that comes from the new nature inside just wanting to know God. And the time we talked I talked about a vision that I had that caused me to leave my job and lock myself up and pray just like you was talking about in the introduction. I prayed and prayed and prayed and it built my spirit up and since these years have went by I found out that praying in tongues is a revelation gift it’s literally a revelation gift. The more that I pray in tongues the more of the mysteries of Christ that I understand by discerning them spiritually. But the more I prayed in tongues the more hungry I became for God and I didn’t I didn’t know anything about fasting hardly. I read some books by some of the old timers that talked about fasting and I would get excited about it but I still didn’t know how fasting worked. I didn’t know the role that it really really played in my life sometimes I stand up and talk about it and say “You know I don’t know what going without eating you know has to do with the power of God but the word of God says that it does.” And so I really didn’t know I had read some of these books and things but the more that I continued to pray the hungrier I got. And so I decided to attempt some of the fasting that these men were talking about because I was just so hungry for God. I didn’t understand at that time how that it literally dealt with my flesh. So I thought fasting, you know I thought the role that it played was God was pleased with my personal sacrifice. Like the more that I would fast the more He was pleased with me loving Him enough to sacrifice and to go without eating. And so I would literally in those early days I would literally fast on feast days you know like Thanksgiving.
Sid: That was quite a sacrifice.
Dave: Well I thought that it was the sacrifice that pleased God.
Dave: Why don’t I just put it on a day that would really please Him on Thanksgiving and even Christmas sometimes. I can remember one Thanksgiving that I was going down to a little store that stayed open to pick up some seasoning for my wife. And after a couple of days fasting where I could smell everybody’s turkey cooking I mean walking down the street. I was so hungry I could just…I could just smell everything my senses was heighten. And so I decided to fleece God which is you know you put out something for God to do or something to happen so you’ll know whether or not to do something. So I went into this little store that stayed open on the holiday and I fleeced God I made it as hard as I could because I really wanted to go home and eat some turkey you know.
Sid: I can understand (Laughing).
Dave: I was so hungry but I fleeced and made it so hard I said “Father God if you want me to continue this fast and again I say continue this fast I want you to have the lady that runs this store that owns it to give me something to eat and I’ll take it as a sign that You want me to go on fasting but if the lady in the store does not give me anything to eat then I’m going to go home and break this.” And I thought I was really safe because she had never in the years that I lived in Oregon she had never given me anything going down to the store.
Sid: Well I would call that a legitimate fleece (Laughing).
Dave: I think I was really really safe (Laughing). So I went in there and I picked up the items for the seasoning and I laid them on the counter and I’m thinking I’m going to make it I’m going to make it. I laid them on the counter and then she tallied them calculated them up. And so hey I picked the bag up just as quick I could and headed towards the door and I almost got out of the door and she said “Excuse me” she said “But I just cooked these rolls and I brought them out here and I’d just like you to have one of these rolls” (Laughing).
Dave: (Laughing) and I stopped and I slowly turned around in unbelief (Laughing) I could not believe that she had done that. And so slowly I turned and slowly I looked back and I can tell you Sid it was really hard for me to feel appreciative you know but I thanked her. And I knew that I had to continue on with the fast but later on my question to God became “If it’s not the sacrifice, if it’s not the sacrifice that’s pleasing You Father God, then what is fasting I mean what role does fasting really play?” I literally believed that my fasting moved God.
Sid: I have to tell you something in the early years I would fast and I would then just say to myself “Well God has done something I can’t see it but I’m sure God I expected in the early years to have a visitation by an angel, a visitation by Jesus, I mean all of these spectacular things but although I never spoke about it I was disappointed because I thought when you fast the supernatural of God shows up.
Dave: That’s what…see some of the old books and things and it’s not that He didn’t at times but that’s what I was looking for too at times in man of God’s lives. See I thought my fasting was moving God but as I continued to pray in the Holy Ghost revelation gift you know and things began to unfold I found that He’s not the one that was stuck.
Dave: You know like in Isaiah 58 he said they fasted that their voice be heard on high. But fasting does not cause God to hear your voice on high but it does move you into a place to hear His voice on low.
Dave: Because He’s already finished the work and He was not the one stuck so my fasting did not move Him it moved the one that had the problem which was me. And fasting if a person classifies it as works or anything but nothing replaces the grace that you and I was saved by not by works that any man should boast. So my fasting couldn’t move God into doing something that He had already done in redemption. But what it did do is it moved my flesh into a position that’s been provided for it which is debt. When I was born again it actually enforced the victory over my flesh and it put my flesh in the position that Jesus said in Romans 8 and 10 “That if Christ be in you My Spirit is life.” It didn’t say alive the people that are in hell are alive. He said “My Spirit is life” it’s entered into the Zoe, God kind that’s seated in heavenly places with Him alive. But the same verse that declared my spirit alive declared my body dead because of sin mean. What I inherited from first man Adam my body was still capable of sinning. But the same way that praying in tongues and worship and speaking His word enforces the grace and the position my spirit’s been declared which is alive. Fasting enforces the positional truth that our flesh has been declared which is dead. And if the flesh is ceiling the life that’s in your spirit or your walk with God if it’s put a ceiling over your life it can’t seem to break through. Fasting doesn’t move God but it does begin to move your flesh into that position that’s been provided for it until you get your glorified body.
Sid: You know I was speaking to a friend of mine who said he went for Christian psychology and it was helpful but he just couldn’t get the victory in certain areas and did I have a suggestion?
SID: There are, let’s call them symptoms of spiritual attacks. Tell us a few that we might not even think of. You mentioned one to me that I never even thought about it: loneliness.
RYAN: Loneliness. The enemy plays a real trick on people’s minds in their loneliness, delayed promises. You know, there is a kairos time for every prophetic promise and Galatians talks about. “We will reap if we faint not.” Well the enemy tries to weary us, that we give up on the promise. You were talking earlier about a prophetic promise in your own life. Sometimes there’s a passing of time. Confusion about purpose is another attack. People get confused about what am I supposed to do? Do you know a spiritual attack can actually create physical fatigue and exhaustion. Elijah was under the juniper tree and couldn’t wake up. He was under an attack of heaviness. So there’s many, many symptoms and if you can identify the symptoms you can recognize the attack. That’s a key.
SID: You told me you were at a major ministry and you were explaining these principles and then, and this is a large ministry. These are really quality people. And they came up to you, members of this ministry, and what did they say?
RYAN: They said, “When I hear you describe these symptoms I have the majority or several of them said, “I have every single symptom and I had no idea I was under an attack. Will you pray and break it.” And we started praying and breaking it, and that breaker anointing, that Micah 2:13 breaker anointing came into that room and God started setting those people free.
SID: Is it difficult? Was it difficult for, I mean, you did so much junk before you were a believer, as I did, too, as many of you did. Was it difficult for you to get free once you were desperate and you wanted to be?
RYAN: No, it wasn’t, Sid. And here’s the thing. The Bible says where the spirit of the Lord is there is liberty. And you know as you’re talking I just feel right now the power of the Holy Ghost coming to set people free. It’s not hard for you to get set free. I see people with attacks of confusion. I see somebody with the spirit of fear that you’re fearful to leave your house. I believe ever here in the studio audience people are under attack. Someone has a frozen shoulder. There’s a spirit of infirmity. Your shoulder can’t move. It’s being healed right now. Somebody else, your neck, you had an injury and they fused something together. The Lord is miraculous healing your neck. I want to pray for you. I want to ask the audience at home and here to lift your voice right now and begin to cry out to the Lord. Come on, lift your voices and begin to cry out to the Lord right now. Father, I thank you for that Micah 2:13 breaker anointing. I break the spirit of fear. I command the spirit of fear to loose people. I command the spirit of pain and infirmity to loose people. I command deafness to loose people. Somebody that their left side has not been restored after a stroke, I release the healing power of the Lord Jesus Christ on your left side. I say receive a miracle right now. I break confusion, prophets that are confused. I break that spirit of confusion. I say you will and you shall prophesy with clarity. I release that breaker anointing now. In the name of Jesus, be free right now. In Jesus’ name, shout to the Lord with a voice triumph. Hallelujah!
SID: You know, some of you may be thinking, well if I could just get a hold of those two guys and they would set me free, if the King of the Universe lives inside of you, Jesus the Messiah, if you have repented of your sins and been born from above, you are qualified to cast out demons, pray for the sick, speak in new tongues. Give me a break. There’s millions of people that are going to need your help shortly and God has chosen you. Now what are you going to do about it?
SID: You know, you made a brilliant profound statement. You said if you can recognize a spiritual attack you can conquer it, as if to say, many people don’t even recognize it.
RYAN: Absolutely. This is one of the critical things that I preach on this and teach on this. It’s in the book. But it’s half the battle, Sid, because here’s what people find and they tell me. They say, I’m just going through this thing and I don’t know how I got here. I’m having a blue Monday. I’m having a bad day. But do you know, a spiritual attack is multi-prong. The devil doesn’t just come after your mind. He comes after your mind, after your marriage, after your finances and the ultimate goal is to separate you from destiny. One of the strongest, greatest revelations we can have is what we were put on Planet Earth to do and the anointing, the power of the Holy Spirit is attached to our destiny. So if the enemy gets us separated from destiny, he gets us separated from the power, and if we’re separated from the power we’re empty. So we recognize an attack and that step one to breaking it, it’s not random. It’s coordinated and it’s got an intention to shipwreck your faith, to get you so discouraged you don’t believe in God anymore, to get you so discouraged you forgot about the prophetic words. You forgot about the promises and many people even watching this today, this is what they’re going through. They’re under a cloud of heaviness. They’re under depression. They’ve got fear of leaving their own home. They’re under financial attack. But if they look deeper, they’re also giving up on the call of God. They’re giving up on the plan of God. The devil is not just after your money. He’s not just after your car. He’s not just after your child. He’s after your destiny and your assignment as a child of God.
SID: Well if that man had not gone to the jail and led him to the Lord, what you’re about ready to hear could not have happened. He’s in Belize, Central America, and he’s ready to speak, and he hears the voice of God. What did God tell you?
RYAN: Well the first great miracle I ever saw was in America and it was a blind lady being healed. So I’m in Belize, I’m getting ready to minister, and the Lord says, “Don’t preach. Tell a story.” Now you know, Jesus can do more with a story than all of our revelation, and revelation accesses faith, and faith moves the substance of Heaven into Earth. So faith moves healing into Earth. Faith moves victory into Earth. Faith moves the angelic realm into Earth. But revelation is the stairway into faith. What is revelation? It’s understanding what God is saying. So God says to me, “Don’t preach. Tell a story. Tell the story of the first miracle you ever saw.” So I’m telling the story about this blind lady, and in the middle of it, Sid, out of spirit it hits my mouth before my brain can understand it. I say, “And tonight, God is going to heal the blind.” So that night there is a young lady, she’s blind, she’s never seen in her entire life. She got some type of fever type of thing as an infant. It destroyed her eyes. She’s got an empty eye socket and a white eyeball. She comes to the front to receiver her miracle and the voice of God says plainly to me, “She’s going to see.” So I’m praying, but I don’t close my eyes, Sid, because I want to see God paint a pupil and put in a new eyeball. So I’m watching and nothing that I can see happens. But remember what the Lord said. The Lord said she’s going to see, but she’s still got while eyeball with no pupil and an empty eye socket. So honestly, I’m not sure if she’s seeing or not. And so I say to her, “I want you to follow me.” And we look at her to figure out what is she seeing out of? Do you know what? She saw out of the white eyeball.
Woman: I can see! I can see! Thank you, Jesus. I can see!
RYAN: Then she covers the white eyeball. How many fingers do you see? She props open an empty socket and she’s seeing out of the empty socket.
Woman: I see two. I can see! Oh my God, I can see!
SID: Wait a minute, that’s impossible. You can’t see out of an empty socket unless God is real, unless all things are possible. Guess what? God is real. All things are possible. Now in the Bible, we talk about people, we read about people that have nothing. Our whole world is falling apart. Tell me very briefly about when that happened to David.
RYAN: The enemy has one opportunity with us and it’s deception. He’s been crushed, he’s been defeated, he’s been dethroned and we have been given all power, all authority. But if he can get us to believe he has authority then we give him authority. And so he deceives us. He makes us think, well this is happened to you because you’re out of the will of God. David is in [unintelligible] in the will of God, comes home, family guy, house is burned, and suddenly, Sid, the people turn on him. See, in a spiritual attack the devil hits you on all sides and David all of a sudden says, “Bring me an ephod.” Now listen to this. He says, “I’m not going to forget who I am. Bring me that garment of identity.” A spiritual attack comes to separate you from your identity and one of the things you need to do to get free from an attack is remind yourself of who God said you are. Get those prophetic words out. You keep on preaching. You keep on prophesying. You keep on marketplace ministering. You keep on raising your children, whatever God has called you to do. In the midst of an attack you wrap yourself in that ephod and you square your shoulders up for battle and say, I am who God says I am, and that’s what David did.
SID: Okay. When we come back I want him, this will amaze you. I want him to identify some areas that perhaps you’re under spiritual attack and then I want him to tell us how we can get free. Be right back.
SID: Hello. Sid Roth here. Welcome. Welcome to my world where it’s naturally supernatural. Have you ever heard about the dream Abraham Lincoln had? Just a few days before he died he had a dream in which he was shown he was going to be murdered. Guess what he did. Nothing, and he was murdered. Well, my guest had a dream about a close family member and did something, and he did not die. And she got the revelation from a dream, and she has a passion for you not to dismiss your dreams as pizza dreams but start understanding that they’re messages from God, and she has a supernatural gift to equip you to understand the language of dreams. Anyone interested? You know, the problem I have with all of my guests, they have so many amazing things that are happening. For instance, you told me, I believe it was just yesterday, you prayed for a cheerleader. What happened?
JANE: As I was prophesying to her the Lord showed me that she had a debilitating injury in her body: “I sense the Lord wants to heal you of a debilitating injury that you once had.” And I didn’t even know that she was a cheerleader, and as I prophesied to her the Lord began to heal her heart. And as He healed her heart He began to heal her body. And found out that she was a cheerleader that had over rotated on a flip, broke her back and had been in extreme pain for about two years. “The Lord is healing your body right now. He is restoring your back. You are healed in the name of Jesus.”
JANE: And right before our eyes God completely healed her back. She had no mobility before. She could put her hands all the way to the floor, move side to side. “How do you feel?”
Cheerleader: I’ve got to go try this.
JANE: And then to my horror she ran out and started throwing back handsprings in the backyard.
SID: No. That is normal according to the Bible.
JANE: That’s right.
SID: I pray the whole world become normal. Now, you were not so normal. You had an evangelical type of background, and God doesn’t speak here today, miracles don’t happen today. But at what age did you first hear God’s audible voice?
JANE: Well, I was 16 years old. The Lord spoke to me and in an audible voice and began to reorder my entire life.
SID: Where were you headed with your life at that time?
JANE: I had college plans, career plans. I had a scholarship in place, a roommate in place, everything planned out. And the Lord came to me and spoke to me audibly, which surprised me because nobody told me that God was still speaking, but He said to me, the plans that you’ve made for your life are not the plans I’ve made for your life.
SID: You know what, look in the camera and say that out loud and prophesy to someone.
JANE: Somebody else needs to hear this. The plans that you’ve made for your life are not the plans that God has made for your life. Some of you feel like everything is falling apart all around about you, and it is because God is redirecting you, God is restructuring you. Somebody out there just lost your job and you feel like it was unjust, but I really feel like the Spirit of the Lord is saying, I’m reordering your steps, watch and see as I open a new door for you.
SID: What did God tell you, that He’s reordering your life, did He tell you what you’re supposed to do now with your life?
JANE: He did. He said, instead of going to that college, instead you’re going to go to Bible college. When you get there, you’re going to meet a man, you’re going to get married young. He said, you’re going to go into ministry immediately and I’m going to make the two of you a team, and I’m going to send you to the nations of the world. And as a team, sometimes he’ll preach and sometimes you’ll preach, but you’ll be doing something new in the earth. And I said, Lord, can you show me somebody that’s doing what I will be doing then? And the Lord said, there’s nobody doing now what you’ll be doing then because I’ll be doing a new thing.
SID: That’s another word for you, too. Okay. I know that you have such a passion to equip people to understand their dreams and their visions, I don’t understand. I’m the type of person, just tell me, God, what to do and I’m going to do it. I don’t need code. I don’t need, well, God, what are you saying. Now, I’ve had a few dreams in my life that were literal. Can I have a literal dream every night? What is this business with codes?
JANE: I sure wish that they would be literal every single night. But, you know, when Jesus came He actually talked to the disciples in parables, which many of the people that heard Him actually didn’t even understand Him. And they had to actually come beside and say, Would you mind explaining to us what this parable meant or what that parable meant. You know, one day I had some dreams that really startled me and that really kind of changed the whole way that I looked at dreams because I didn’t come from a church background, I didn’t know that God was speaking until He spoke to me, and then I didn’t know that dreams were for today until I actually had some dreams that were quite obviously from the Lord for my life right then.
SID: And you know what? I understand that you were having dreams and they were with coming to pass quickly.
JANE: That’s right,
SID: So you kind of put the two together.
JANE: That’s right
.SID: So you’re especially gifted. What about me? What about you? Is it for everyone?
JANE: It is. You know, Acts chapter 2, after the outpouring of the Holy Spirit, the quote from the book of Joel was brought forth by Peter, and he said this. He said, in the last days, which I think you’ll agree we’re in the last days.
SID: We’re in the last of the last days.
JANE: That’s right, the last of the last days. God said, I will pour out my spirit on all flesh, and the result is going to be your sons and your daughters are going to start prophesying. But beyond that it says young men are going to see visions, old men are going to dream dreams. Okay. So prophecy, dreams and visions are ways that God speaks, and then God says, I’m going to pour it out on all flesh. Many, many years I read and I thought that said Christian flesh, but it doesn’t even say Christian flesh. It says all flesh.
SID: So if it says all flesh, does that explain why I’m hearing so many reports of Muslims in the middle east?
SID: They’re having dreams. Tell me what you’re hearing.
JANE: The phenomenon is happening throughout the Muslim world, throughout the Buddhist world, even here in the secular world that God is visiting people in dreams. I just heard a story a couple of weeks ago about a Muslim man that actually was in the U.K. that had a dream, and the Lord said.
Man: You must go to the street corner where you will find a man carrying two sticks in the shape of a cross.
JANE: He went and talked to the man, and the two sticks in the shape of the cross was the cross.
Man: I receive Jesus Christ as my Lord and savior. I confess all of my sins today, and I change my ways from hereon, in Jesus name.
JANE: And the man led him to Christ.
SID: You know, you have an understanding of Proverbs 29:18 that will really show you why dreams are so important.
JANE: Proverbs 29 says that where there is no vision people perish. Where there is no vision. When you look that word vision up, it literally has other translations. Where there is no prophecy, where there is no revelation people dwell carelessly, people wander aimlessly, people cast off restraint. And I think if ever we were living in a day that looks like that, that’s today. And I believe that God wants to not just raise up the Christian community to begin to hear the voice of God for ourselves so that we know what God is saying to us, but I believe that God wants to raise up Daniels and Josephs so that when God begins to pour His spirit out and begin to give vision to an unbeliever or to someone that doesn’t know Christ in another religion, that then that person that’s a Daniel or Joseph can say, You know what, I believe God is talking to you, let me tell you what I believe He’s saying. It’s happened to me. I’ve led people to the Lord by interpreting their dreams.
SID: In that verse, the word vision means again? The word vision means in the Hebrew?
JANE: It means prophecy or prophetic revelation.
SID: And without a prophecy, a dream, a prophetic revelation
JANE: That’s right.
SID: My people perish.
JANE: That’s right.
SID: That’s pretty heavy.
JANE: That’s right.
SID: Okay. When we come back there’s a dimension you don’t even, you don’t even know. In your dreams, all of the gifts of the Spirit operate. You can literally even get physically healed in your dreams. Be right back
SID: So what happens when you go all over the world, you see the greatest creative miracles. I mean, 24 out of 25 blind people get their sight back and the 25th didn’t because she didn’t want it. Literally, she thought it was better for her testimony to be blind. I don’t get that, David. But you get sick.
SID: That’s where the rubber hits the road.
DAVID: Oh yes.
SID: Tell me about it.
DAVID: Years of doing healing services and seeing these miracles I started getting a pain in my lower back that just, I couldn’t sit down. I couldn’t drive. I was taking 18-hour flights and I was miserable for like six months, just hard to do any kind of travel. And I started reading Mark 11. It talked about the fig tree and the power in your words, and talked about whosoever and whatsoever, whatever you believe that God will do it. And I started studying on that and I got healed. But the very, almost literally the next day, if not the next week for sure, my knee went out. I don’t know what happened. I was lifting, helped my brother move some furniture and it just went out. Well that little problem with just a twinge or hurt on my knee turned into a big problem where I couldn’t even walk.
SID: So you’re walking and limping.
SID: And I’m going to get a hold of you guys.
DAVID: And it’s funny. When I started preaching I was fine, moving around and everything. But then after the service, I’m all limping, going back to my room. I look like I need assistance and I was seeing knees healed and healed, and healed. I could hear the cracking in the knees. I could see knees popping back. I prayed for one lady and she hadn’t picked up her grand kids for seven years, and I prayed and automatically she just popped up, I’m healed, and she was able to pick up your grandchildren.
SID: So what do you think when people’s knees are being healed and you’re aching for all your worth?
DAVID: I’m thinking, what did I do wrong, Lord? Where did I go wrong? And then I went ahead and just kept studying, and kept going. Out of the whole I thing, I got to say one thing. I didn’t stop doing the will of God. I didn’t stop believing. I didn’t stop trusting because I’m praying in confidence that the scriptures are real, that the scriptures are true and people are getting healed. Regardless of how I feel or how I look, it’s still God’s Word reigns true. And I kept doing that and believing in that, and then it wasn’t until I got to Kenya, this was like six months with this knee problem already, and I’m preaching, and I’m preaching a message that I’ve been preaching in the churches, whosoever and whatsoever. I love doing that message. And I’m over there preaching and I said, Lord, that’s it. I need to figure out why I’m not being healed because it was really getting back where I couldn’t even sleep at night. I’d get two hours’ a night sleep because you just can’t position yourself in the bed. And I just looked at the scripture and I noticed something I didn’t notice before. The revelation hit me and that is we have to decree and set the terms. Jesus said to that plant, the fig tree that “You will not produce any more fruit and you will wither and die.” He decreed and set the terms and it died. And the next time when they came back it was dead. The plant was gone. All the disciples were jumping up and crazy about that one miracle. Despite seeing all the healings and miracles, and they were excited about that miracle, and it was a miracle on just words alone. It wasn’t the very first time that Jesus didn’t bring something back to life or heal something. It was a lesson for all of us to realize how powerful our words are. And when I looked at that I had seen that, I looked at my knee, I grabbed it, I just put my hand on my knee and I said, “You will be healed. In the next week by the end of this service you will no longer bother me any more. You will not come back again. This day and one night this disease will not come back again.” I said, “You are healed in Jesus’ name. You have no choice but to listen to my words.” I’m preaching, one day I got a little bit better sleep. The second day I’m preaching at night I get a better sleep. The third day, not even bothering me when I sleep, but I still when I’m walking it’s still there. By the fifth day I’m preaching, I hear a beautiful snap just in my leg. That’s the same snaps I was hearing in Louisiana. I was like, I know what that sounds like. You know, faith has a sound. I can tell you right now faith does have a sound and it’s that sound of God just reaching in and fixing things. And I reached down and I touched my leg, and I couldn’t remember which knee was hurting. That’s how good it was.
SID: Okay. There are people now whose knees are hurting. I want you to pray for them and whatever God has for you to pray for healing right now.
DAVID: Absolutely. God told me three things today and that was this, that people are going to be healed, that the Word of God that we preach will not return until it’s void, that the power of God is anointed on these airwaves to your heart, to your legs, to your back. In fact, this morning I felt a strong urge to tell people with back pains to put their hand on their back when we pray. And we’re going believe right now that God is going to heal you. I feel that legs are being healed, knees are being healed. I command cancer to leave in Jesus’ name. And I believe right now with the fullness of God and the confidence in God’s Word, we got to have confidence when we talk about God’s word that it does reign true. And I believe right now that people will be healed. I release an anointing over backs and knees. I release an anointing over the whole body and I command all the hands to be healed, and I believe that God is talking to someone just to listen to me when I say these words. It’s simple. God is going to tell you that it’s simple. Just believe. Just believe. It’s simple. Go to Mark 11:23. Read it and read what Jesus says. If you just believe, that’s all we have to do, that’s all we need to is believe that God will heal and I believe it right now and receive that anointing and that healing that we send out in Jesus’ name. Amen.
SID: There’s enough faith right now coming through your television or your computer that you can make Jesus your Messiah and Lord. It’s a leap of faith. Take the leap right now. Say Jesus, forgive me of all of my sins. I ask you to live inside of me and be Lord of my life. Amen. You and your house will be saved.
SID: David, people call you the igniter of faith and now that I’ve met you I understand why. But why do people say that about you?
DAVID: It’s because I come into a place and I change the atmosphere, and I think the atmosphere from fear and doubt to faith, I think that’s what every Christian needs to do.
SID: You told me the biggest problem you spot in the United States and even throughout the world is fear. Explain.
DAVID: It is. It’s fear. I was in a large church preaching and we had a prayer line, if you could believe this, all the way through the pavilion, all the way out to the parking lot waiting to get prayed for. And they didn’t want me just to do a mass prayer. They wanted me just to lay hands. Everybody wanted people to lay hands. And as I was praying, everybody I asked what are their prayer requests, they said fear. Almost 80 percent of the people said fear. So I prayed and I learned that, I talked to the pastors and said, you got to start preaching that fear out of your church and out of your people’s lives.
SID: How do you get rid of fear? I mean, it’s easy to say that.
DAVID: Yeah, it’s easy to say it.
SID: Your problem is fear. But how do you get rid of it?
DAVID: You start believing. Whatever you believe, faith and fear can both receive. If you give fear and give into fear, start feeding fear, well whatever fear dictates for your life is going to happen because you’re feeding with your thoughts and your actions. But if feed faith and feeding faith is believing the scriptures. Feeding faith is believing what Jesus said. Anything you ask in my name I will do it.
SID: You know, it’s so simple you need to help to get confused.
SID: And that’s what you’re known for. You teach simply and you get the same results in the Bible.
DAVID: Absolutely. Absolutely. When we’re preaching out there I try and make sure that I keep it
where the people could just grasp it because there’s a lot of people out there that do fight with fear and fear has other friends that come with it. Fear has doubt. Fear has oppression. Fear has depression. All these things come in and they keep you from being, you have to wake up. I’m not saying you got to jump out of bed and say I’m excited for faith. That’s a good thing to do. But get up and know. The Bible says in Nahum 1:7, “God knows him that trusts in him.” You got to know that God knows you.
SID: When you know the promises of God and you get rid of fear, what’s possible?
SID: Tell me the truth. You go to a lot of countries and you see some horrible physical conditions. Anyone ever get before you and you say, oh God, I believe in miracles, but this is too much.
DAVID: When I am walking in that anointing, everybody tells me that, when I walk in the anointing, when I’m out there I’m a different person. I’m just walking. I’m believing God for anything. Nothing is impossible. I had a lady come up with a very crooked arm I’m drinking a Sprite after the entire service, cooling off inside the church. She comes to me and she comes after the service all walking slow and just showing me her hand. It was all crooked in different places. And I pop may hand out, and I say, “Put your hand through that.” And she starts putting her hand through it, and as her hand passes my hand you just hear pop, pop, pop, pop until, pow, at the end of where her elbow was it snapped into place. And Bishop Mike that was with me, he said there was a fireball that when I put my hand out, he just seen a fireball glowing in my hand as she put her hand through it. And she was healed instantly.
SID: Now we perceive by faith in the integrity of the Word of God, but you don’t have a clue what’s going on in the invisible world by you just being obedient. What you just said is literally God, because he found someone willing to believe his Word put a fireball in there.
DAVID: Absolutely. If you look at the Bible, you look at Jesus, you look at Paul, those are two men that operate in creativity. If you looked at Jesus you wouldn’t have gotten basins and said, hey, fill those up with water and then you got wine. It doesn’t sound like it makes sense. You don’t know why you’re doing it, but the people believed him, they went and did it, and they got wine. You look at Paul. The Bible says that God brought special miracles through the hands of Paul. He took his apron, tore it up, sent it out to people to get healed inside their own homes. He’s the original TV evangelist. He was able to take all the anointing that we take and put it into people’s living rooms. It was the same thing back then by taking his apron and sending miracles.
SID: Now this guy, he so ignites your faith that when he speaks he’s even had a whole city get healed. Tell me about that, in India.
DAVID: Oh absolutely. In India, in Badapada, I preached there. There’s 500 people in attendance. There’s about 500 people outside in villages: Hindu, Muslim and Christian. We preached there and that was the first place that I preached a hundred percent working power. And I’ve said that everybody can be healed. Jesus had it. Jesus would talk into a city and all villages would be healed, and God honored what I preached. I got home three weeks later, and I only had those 500 in there, and the people that were inside the building, but when I got back home they called me back and said a thousand people got healed because the whole village was healed. They were so ignited in their faith, like we talked earlier, they were so ignited in their faith all the preachers and Christians went out to look for people to pray for. That’s what you want to do. And when I went out there they called me back and they said, hey, there’s no one to pray for. Everybody was already healed because there were speakers around the entire city and village. The church put speakers everywhere and everybody heard the message. Everybody heard the message of God and his miracle working power.
SID: God is healing people right now.
SID: Speaking of his miracle working power, there are people who, your fingers, it hurts when you bend your fingers. That pain is just, I don’t know if God sent in a fireball to get rid of that pain. Frankly, I don’t care. But test and see the Lord is good. David, one of the keys you talk about that most believers miss is delayed miracles. They think because nothing happened when he prayed for me, nothing is going to happen. You find different.
DAVID: Oh absolutely. When people are delayed on their miracles the first thing that happens to them is it compounds it with more doubt. They go to the service, they didn’t see a physical thing happen and they go home and they start getting all sad and get in a pity party, but you know, you got to believing. The Bible says when Daniel was praying that the moment he prayed, the moment he prayed God sent the angel. The second that he put his knee down and said, “Father, I need this,” the angel came forward. But it also says in that same scripture that for 21 days the devil stopped him. That’s a delayed miracle. It eventually got to him. I want to tell everybody this that the devil can’t stop what you’re faith released. He can’t stop it. He can’t stop it. He can’t keep it away from you forever.
SID: So you’re not moved by what you see with your eyes. You’re only moved by the integrity of the Living God and his Word. Tell me about one person that had a delayed miracle.
DAVID: This is a wonderful story of a young boy in India that came running through. All these kids rush me when I’m praying. The adults just go through the line, but the kids are able to run. They have fun in church and they run by. And there was a little boy and I could see that he was walking a little different. I could see that he was a little bit off on some of the stuff. And I just laid a hand on him like this, that’s as quick as I could go, and he took off. Well do you know that two hours later I’m in Badapada. I’m preaching over there 80 kilometers from where I ministered and he’s 80 kilometers from where I prayed for him, and it’s two hours later that he’s walking up the stairs. He has crooked legs. They’re bent backwards in a way and he’s walking up the stairs. He calls his mother crying. His mother thought he fell down again and said, “What happened?” And he goes, “Well mom, I feel Jesus touching my legs.” And then when he got to the top of the stairs she dropped the phone and the mother was frantic, and she said, “What’s going on?” And he goes, “I see Jesus’ hands and he’s straightening my legs.
SID: I’m reminded of the scripture. Jesus said, “Will I find faith when I return to Earth?” I’m going to tell you something, never give up. Never give up. Now it’s easy to preach how wonderful God heals. What happens when you get hit with two physical conditions yourself like David did? What happens then? That’s the real test, where the rubber hits the road. We’re going to find out when we come back.
Sid RothComments Off on Our Guests Mark Virkler & Charity Kayembe
We now return to It’s Supernatural
SID: Okay. I’ve been waiting for you to share this, Dr. Charity. I think it must be a degree of a passion with you. Children just physiologically are better adapted to get dreams than us adults. Explain.
CHARITY: You’re right. They’re very sensitive to the supernatural world. They’re very sensitive to the Spirit because of their brainwave state. Adults, right now, we’re in Beta. It’s like a faster, logical, analytical brain wave state.
SID: Absolutely. That’s where I am.
CHARITY: But then there’s Alpha. And Alpha is a slower more meditative kind of prayerful brainwave state. And when we dream we’re in Alpha. And just as we’re falling asleep at night and just as we’re waking up in the morning, that’s Alpha, when we’re not really sure if we’re awake or asleep and the veil between the physical and the spiritual is very thin. That’s Alpha. Well the incredible thing that science has found about children is that they live continually, day and night, in the Alpha brain wave state up until seven years of age. So they’re not living logically and analytically out of their head, they’re living out of their heart.
SID: I would rather do that myself.
CHARITY: You’re right. They’re living out of Second Corinthians 4:18. They’re living to an unseen realm. They’re living to an inner kingdom. And so we know God lives in our hearts. We all want to live out of hearts and that makes us very sensitive to the supernatural realm that infuses and permeates this natural realm.
SID: Maybe that’s why so many children love our show. I’m amazed, I mean, even at young ages, they’re attracted to It’s Supernatural.
CHARITY: Absolutely. They see into the Spirit. They hear. They are young seers. They are very gifted in the prophetic. You’re right.
SID: Now you teach simple keys to understanding of dreams and the keys work for children, but they also work for all of us. Tell us a few of the keys.
CHARITY: There’s three specific questions that we want to ask about every single dream we have. Number one, we want to ask what is the setting. And we talked about what’s going on in our waking life when we have the dream. And then number two, we want to ask what is the main action of the dream. In the dream, what am I doing? Am I running? Am I hiding? Am I ministering? That’s the key action. And the third question we want to ask about every dream is in the dream, how am I feeling? Am I excited? Am I scared? Am I disappointed, grateful? That’s the key emotion. And then we take the key emotion and action from the dream, and we look in our waking life, and we match it up. Where in waking life am I feeling that emotion? Where am I doing this, and then experiencing these things? Then we overlay our waking life world setting on top of the dream. We see where it matches up. Then we know what area of our life the dream is speaking to. For example, I can share a dream. And it seems silly. It seems like it’s just a pizza [dream] but there’s really, there’s a message in it from God. I had a dream where I was on a pole vaulting team. All the people on the team.
SID: Now you see, if I had a dream like that I’d say, but God, don’t you know I’m not an athlete.
CHARITY: Yes. But then we know to translate we need to look at the picture symbolically, figuratively. It’s all in pictures. So okay, everyone on the team was able to pole vault except for me. I was too weak and I was too sick, and I couldn’t get over the high bar. So what’s the main action in this dream? Well I’m trying to get over something and the feeling is I’m struggling because I can’t do it. So where in waking life am I struggling to get over something? Well in waking life I had actually been talking to God about someone who had said something to me and I was a little bit offended. I’m like, God, should I confront them? Should I tell them they hurt my feelings or should I just forgive them, walk in love and let it go, just get over it? Well God gave me this picture at night, showing me everyone else who was on your team, they were able to get over it. If you’re spiritually strong, if you’re a spiritually healthy person you should have no trouble getting over. Pole vaulting was the picture, but getting over was the problem. So by looking at what’s going on in our waking life and matching it up with the dream we’re able to see kind of what God is speaking to.
SID: You know, another clue that you gave me is that when you have multiple dreams in a night most likely they’re all telling you the same thing.
CHARITY: Absolutely. That’s how it was for Pharaoh in the book of Genesis. He dreams of corn on the cob and then he’s dreaming of the fat cows, and that seems unrelated. They have nothing to do with each other. But Joseph is like, hey, that’s one and the same message. That’s all talking about the same famine that’s going to happen. So when we have lots of different dreams they might seem unrelated, but in one night God is usually speaking to a single heart issue and he’s just showing us different angles, different perspectives so that we can get the message. He’s showing us all different perspectives to communicate the message meaning he has for us.
SID: Mark, you say very strongly we should write down our dreams. When do we write them down, when we have them and wake up, or do we write them down first thing after we finished our sleep for the night? What do you recommend?
MARK: You do it as soon as you wake up. So if you wake up in the middle of the night, 2:00 from the dream, you write it down at 2:00 because chances are you’ll have forgotten most of your dreams by the time you wake up in the morning. And so you write the dream down as soon as you receive it. God loves you to write things down because you’re honoring your heart. You’re saying to your heart, you’re important. You wake me up and I’ll record what you give me. So your heart says, great, I’m going to wake you up because you now honor me. And it’s a way of memorializing it. It’s a way of extending it because you as you begin to write the flow gives you pieces that you forgot about, and you say, there was that.
SID: That’s what I’ve noticed. In other words, it’s almost like the Holy Spirit will bring the recall when you have the intent. I want to know what you told me. Last minute, would you pray for us. Would you pray that everyone watching have sweet sleep and people with sleep problems and remember our dreams.
MARK: Amen. Be glad to. So right now, Father, we just come to you in the name of Jesus, and Father, we just release sweet sleep and dreams into the heart of every single listener here today. And we speak to your heart and we say be at peace as you fall asleep. Give your care to the Lord Jesus Christ and receive sweet rest, deep rest from the Holy Spirit, and we speak to your heart for faith to arise within your heart that you will have the gift of faith to believe that dreams are the language of the Holy Spirit and God is speaking directly into your heart. So I speak faith into your heart right now to believe in the value of dreams, and it’s God speaking to you through those dreams. So Father, we receive those gifts right now. In Jesus’ name we thank you for them. We bless you for them in Jesus’ name. Amen.
SID: God says that he gives his beloved sweet sleep. The question is, are you his beloved? If Jesus is your Lord, if you believe Jesus forgave you of your sins and you say it out loud, and you ask Jesus to live inside of you, I’m going to tell you something, you and I want this to go deep inside of you, you are the beloved of God. You really are.
Sid RothComments Off on Our Guests Mark Virkler & Charity Kayembe
We now return to It’s Supernatural
SID: Dr. Charity, you teach that we are the best people to interpret our own dreams. We don’t have to go to the experts. We have the expert inside of us. His name, Holy Spirit. Explain.
CHARITY: The dreamer himself is the most qualified interpretation expert of their dream because they know what the symbols mean to them better than anyone. You know your association with whatever person or event, or thing. Number two, you know the setting of the dream better than anyone. You as the dreamer know that. The setting is what is going on in your waking life when you had the dream. Setting is everything. We don’t know anything about a dream until we know the setting. So with every dream that we have we want to go back to our waking life and say, what happened that day. What was I was thinking about as I got ready for bed? What was I praying for as I fell asleep?
SID: It’s almost like a lightbulb goes off.
CHARITY: Yes. You have an ah-ha moment. The interpretation needs to resonate in the heart of the dreamer and then you know you have the right message. It just clicks.
SID: Now Dr. Mark, tell me some famous inventions. And by the way, you’re saying, oh I couldn’t come up with an invention. Do you think God could? Does God have any problem? He’s just looking for someone to use. Just volunteer. Say what Abraham said, “Here am I, God.” Tell me some famous inventions.
MARK: Yes, and does God even care about famous inventions or does he just care about your spiritual life, or is inventions part of it all? And it is. Let me tell you about Larry Page. He was at Stanford University, 22 years of age, and he had a dream at night. And in this dream he sees himself downloading the entire Internet onto his personal computer, and he sees some algorithms that are connecting all the different articles like computer code, and it’s showing how he’s able to access and pull these articles down. He wakes up in the middle of the night. He spends two hours writing out what he can recall from that dream with these different rules as to how connect these articles and pull them down. He took it to his professor at college and told him he was going to create this in a couple of weeks and his professor laughed at him. It took him a year of working this dream out. But a year later, he had the Google search bar, which we now all use, which has become the foundation of Google Enterprises, which has made that the biggest, richest company in the world today, and made the founder of it, Larry Page, one of the richest men in the world today because he listened to a dream, honored the dream, got up and spent two hours writing about it, spent a year working it out and now he’s blessed the world with a gift that we all use every single day of our lives, and he’s become wealthy as a result of that.
SID: Tell me one more. I mean, there’s so many. Wasn’t it Thomas Edison that used to take a nap every day and God would show him inventions?
MARK: Yes. Almost every single inventor has done that. And the gentleman who came up with the sewing machine, he couldn’t figure out, he patented the first sewing machine. He couldn’t figure out how to thread the thread in the end of a needle. And he goes to sleep with that question on his mind, and he has a dream of an arrow being shot through a wigwam wall, snaring a thread on the inside of the wall and pulling it back to the wall. He said that’s the way to hook the thread to the end of this needle. And he patented it, and he became very, very wealthy. So there’s another example from recent history.
SID: Mark, what would you say to the person that’s listening to us right now and say, but Dr. Mark, I believe everything you’re saying, but I don’t remember one of my dreams.
MARK: Well that’s really, really simple to resolve. All you simply have to do is you lay there in bed at night, say, “Holy Spirit, would you give me a dream tonight.” Say, “I believe in dreams. I believe in my heart. I believe my heart wants to communicate with me revelation, and Lord, I’m asking you to give me revelation in this area that I’m exploring right now, because you’ve asked me to explore it, and you have wonderful answers.” You go to sleep asking that and wake up, and you put paper and pencil next to your bed, saying to your heart, “If you wake me up I’ll write down what you give me.” If you do that, I guarantee you, you’re going to wake up every week with wonderful stuff to write down.
SID: You know what I found out in your teaching, most people are like me and they just, I’m so pragmatic. If I can’t understand my dream, I don’t want to even waste my time fooling with it. But then what I was thinking from your teaching is there was no expectancy and I got what I expected, nothing.
SID: How important is it to believe you’re going to have this?
MARK: According to your faith, be it unto you, ask and you will receive. So if I’m not going to believe in dreams and I’m not going to ask for dreams then the Bible is clear to say I’m going to get nothing. Because he who comes to God must believe that he is and he’s the rewarder of those who seek him. If I say, I don’t really know if I believe in dreams, well you’re not believing in God speaking from your heart. So you’re getting nothing. You have to take a step of faith and say, look, the Bible covers dreams, I believe in dreams, I believe in the Bible, I’m going to practice living in dreams. It’s as simple as that.
SID: Now also we’re living in a very complex world today. What if, and God knows what’s going to happen today, and he can warn you. Give me an example of a warning dream.
MARK: A warning dream. I was on the phone with a lady who was phoning me from prison and she had a warning dream before she even got saved, from God, which shows God’s tremendous love for every single person. And she was a teenager thinking of going from Utah or Nevada over to California. In the dream, the warning was don’t go to California. If you do, you’re going to go to prison. She ignored the warning. She went to California. She got involved in the drug scene and in a drug induced stupor, she killed her roommate, and she’s now spending a life prison sentence in a California prison, which she wouldn’t have had to do had she honored the voice of God through her dream and the warning of God through her dream.
SID: Charity, you have so opened up my thinking to children having advantage over people like me, children having advantage over everyone in dreaming, and we just totally dismiss this. What would happen if you taught your children that God speaks through dreams? What would happen if your children start telling you what God has in store for them? It’s just expanding my thinking so much. When we come back I want to find, Charity, what you found out, and you have a degree in Biblical Studies. We’ll come right back.
Sid RothComments Off on Our Guests Mark Virkler & Charity Kayembe
Is there a supernatural dimension, a world beyond the one we know? Is there life after death? Do angels exist? Can our dreams contain messages from Heaven? Can we tap into ancient secrets of the supernatural? Are healing miracles real? Sid Roth has spent over 35 years researching the strange world of the supernatural. Join Sid for this edition of It’s Supernatural.
SID: Hello. Sid Roth here. Welcome. Welcome to my world where it’s naturally supernatural. My guests say that if you do not understand your dreams, you will miss much of your destiny for the last days. But if you’re like me, these symbol books of dreams, these big books of symbols, I’m just too practical. If I can’t understand I’m going to toss it out. But it’s so simple they teach children how to understand their dreams. And this is what they say. They say everyone can understand their dreams. Everyone has dreams and God is going to speak things to you you’ll never get in your natural mind. You will hear God better than you have before. Do you want to learn? Me, too. Mark, our producers are so excited about your understanding of how we can understand dreams and visions. You say that our dreams are absolutely the easiest way we can hear from God. Why do you say that?
MARK: Because dreams come from our heart and thinking comes from our head. And when we go to sleep at night our heart stays awake and our heart communicates to us without having to go through the bottleneck of our brain. And Jesus lives in our heart. When I got saved I invited Jesus into my heart. So now we have heart to heart communication without my brain muddling up the works. So dreams are simple, they’re easy, they bypass the mind, they give me direct revelation, spirit to spirit, heart to heart.
SID: Well Charity, why are dreams so important?
CHARITY: Dreams are so important because God says they are.
SID: Well that should be good enough.
CHARITY: Exactly. Over and over in the Bible he says he’ll reveal himself to us in visions, he’ll speak to us in dreams, and he says that he’ll open our ears and seal our instruction, and turn us from wrong-doing, and keep us from pride. And I love with it says in Songs of Solomon. It talks about how dreams are God’s contingency plan, because it says that, “When we’re asleep our heart is awake to commune with our beloved.” So when our mind shuts down, we are kind of deified and put in place of God. When that thing rests at night we go to our hearts and that’s where God lives. Ephesians 3:17, “God lives in our hearts.” So we want to live out of our hearts as well and commune with our beloved, and he speaks with us wonderful counsel and revelation every single night through our dreams.
SID: Mark, what about someone that says, I don’t have dreams or visions. That’s just not me. What would you say to them?
MARK: I would say what they should be saying is I don’t recall my dreams and visions, because they do have dreams. Every single night everybody does and they’ve proven that in sleep laboratories. Because in a sleep laboratory they can watch and tell when you begin to dream, because when you begin to dream your eyes begin to flicker back and forth, and it’s called REM sleep, R-E-M, rapid eye movement. And if they wake a person up whenever they see their eyes begin to move and don’t let them dream, after three days they’re going to enter into a nervous breakdown, which shows how important and central dreams are for our emotional well being.
SID: Now most people that teach on dreams have a big book on symbols and all you do is look in the book for your symbol, but you don’t go along with that. Why?
CHARITY: You’re right. People have complained to us and told us, when we try to do that we want to make sense of our dreams and we jump online, or we look at the dream symbol dictionary, we feel more confused at the end after we looked it up. This doesn’t make sense. This doesn’t feel right. And so they’re like, dream interpretation, this is crazy. But the dream symbol dictionaries, they do not take into account your own personal experiences, your own unique perceptions, your own individual perspective on things. For example, if I dream of a dog and I love dogs, that’s great. But if you dream of a dog and you were viciously attacked by a dog, well that’s going to say two totally different things depending on who is dreaming it.
SID: You know what I found? When I talk to these dream experts, so to speak, and I give them my dreams, each one gives me a different interpretation. So what I did, Mark, was I just tossed the thing out except for literal dreams. And I do get literal dreams, but they’re very infrequent. Most of my dreams are the way most of your dreams are, but I’m never going to throw out God speaking to me again. And you make it so simple. Have you heard that before from others, Charity?
CHARITY: Definitely. We’ve tried, to enter the Kingdom of Heaven you have to be like a little child. So if we complicate it more than a little kid can do then we’ve made it too hard.
SID: Now I’ve read a scripture that it says, “The wealth of the wicked is stored up for the righteous.” Did you know that God is in a wealth transfer right now and he wants to speak to you through dreams and visions? And when we come back, I’m going to ask Dr. Mark to tell us some famous things that have been developed through dreams and visions. But you can get wisdom. You can get solutions to family problems. You can get business ideas. I mean, let’s face it. If every night you could hear from God it would be heaven on Earth. We’ll be right back.
Sid: I have a guest this week that is going get to your thinking straightened out because there is so much confusion in what is called “Word of Faith Teaching.” Let me tell you a little bit about myself. You know when Jewish people, and that’s my background I’m Jewish. When Jewish people come to the Lord if you will we’re at the mercy of the people that lead us to the Lord. If someone happens to be Catholic that leads us to the Lord we end up being Catholic. If they happen to be charismatic we end up being charismatic. If they happen to be fundamental we end up being fundamental. Well many of the people that came into my path when I became a new believer were into Word of Faith Teaching. I jumped in hook, line, and sinker, but I have a very pragmatic side and I found for me that it wasn’t working. It was working for others because I heard them say it, but for me it wasn’t working. I kind of distanced myself from it, then I had an unfortunate thing happen. A friend of mine that was very strong in the Word of Faith Teaching, strongest person I know in that arena, died of a serious illness. I was there when he died and the day before he said “I am going to live and not die and declare the works of the Lord.” He was doing everything right, he was dotting every “i”, he was crossing every “t” and that put me in a bit of a tailspin. But here’s where I’m at now, and I’ve been a believer almost 30 years in the Lord and I believe that God is a faith God. I believe that God’s promises in the Bible are from Him and are true. I believe that there is as much healing in the atonement as there is forgiveness of sin. The best thing we have is meditating on God’s word in reference to physical healing, and standing on the promises despite what is going on with the circumstances of our life and get as close to God as possible. I believe through faith and patience we will inherit the promises, but then when the teaching on prosperity came it really through me for a loop because I saw so much lust, and so much greed, and so much the opposite of what I read about in the word of God especially the words of Jesus it really turned me off. So when I found out about Gary Carpenter whose ministry is in Tulsa, Oklahoma it got me so excited. Gary tell me what happened with you in reference to Word of Faith Teaching and in particular prosperity.
Gary: Well I was pretty much like you the person that led me to the Lord brought me right into the Word of Faith movement. I listened to all of the tapes, I went to all of the camp meetings by the prominent teachers we got saved my wife and I and Spirit filled in 1980. We was living Tulsa there’s a lot of conventions here and so we would go to all of them. I was probably taught pretty much the same principles and teachings that you were. The thing of it is the men I still have a lot of respect for, and I’m not sure what they were teaching is exactly the way I heard it. The way I heard it this gospel was all about me (laughing). In other words, the focus was on me, my house, my cars, my prosperity, whether they meant it that way or not that’s the way I heard it. Everything that was taught every principle such as the 100 fold return and we could just go down the list. I’ll say it this way, I’ve been down every one of those rabbit trails. It may or may not have been working for them, you know they say it was and perhaps it was, I never could make it work for me. We floundered pretty much that was what we were, you know what we cut our teeth on when we became Christians. But I got pretty disillusioned pretty much like you say. It didn’t really change for me until 1992 and that’s the year that Sue and I began attending Pastor Dave Roberson’s church here in Tulsa called the Family Prayer Center. It’s amazing the timing of the Lord Dave was teaching a series just as we began there. In that series he was saying “You know there’s really nothing wrong with faith, without faith it’s impossible to please Him.” Hebrews 11:6 I believe says that “Without faith it’s impossible to please Him. He that comes to God must be that He is and that He is a rewarder of those that diligently seek Him.”
Sid: You know what I like to do Gary is a… what I consider a better definition than the word “Faith” is I usually insert the word “Trust.”
Sid: And when you insert the word “trust” instead of the word “faith,” I mean you have to be stupid to not believe that without trust you can’t please God.
Gary: Well that’s for sure you know. My children if I found out they didn’t trust me, if they didn’t trust my words to them that would hurt me tremendously it certainly wouldn’t please me. It pleases me when they trust daddy, and it pleases our Father when we trust Him.
Sid: So you were exposed to this teaching and what difference did it make?
Gary: Well Dave he said “There’s nothing wrong with the faith movement but now here’s the problem what is decreed by the faith man. ‘Well I’m not moved by what I see, I’m not moved by what I feel, I’m only moved by the word of God.’” Well that’s true but without the leadership of the Holy Spirit you may start down a certain path but it’s not really His direction for your life. So God starts sending all kind of warning signals and flags going “Wrong path wrong way” but you’re a faith man you’re not moved by any of that and so you just keep going. Dave says “Faith is good, God is trustworthy but we are to be led by His Spirit not by our own desire.” Then he began to teach us how we could become more in attune to voice and the leadership of the Holy Spirit, His guiding. As anyone who knows Pastor Dave Roberson very well knows he teaches very… expounds a lot on praying in the spirit, praying in other tongues. What Pastor Dave calls the mortification, edification process.
Sid: But you knew this you had been charismatic for a while, speaking in tongues for a while before you wondered into his church. What’s the difference?
Gary: Oh the difference is tremendous. I think I was like most charismatics in those days you get up in the morning you quote 2 or 3 scriptures, you spend maybe 10 or 15 minutes praying in other tongues and you’ve pretty well had your fellowship time, at least that was most of the ones that I knew. What Dave is talking about a combination of 2 things, he really taught us how to meditate, really, on the word of God leaving every scripture in context, never lifting a verse out of its setting, and he also told us and taught us to spend hours praying in other tongues giving the Holy Spirit time to communicate those mysteries like it says in 1st Corinthians 14:2 “He that speaks to God, he that speaks in an unknown tongue speaks not unto men but unto God. How be it in the spirit he speaketh mysteries…” but we’re not speaking mysteries to God that He doesn’t understand. The Holy Spirit is communicating with us mysteries that we don’t understand, and a big part of that is our very calling, what is God wants us to do in the body of Christ what it is we are to accomplish for the kingdom while we are on earth. After hearing Dave’s message… now here’s something I say all the time, when I first started hearing Dave a common thing that I said “I have been burned by so many well-meaning preachers in the past. Pastor Dave I love you, I appreciate you but no matter what you say it’s not scripture until I find it (laughing).” So everything he would teach I would take every verse I would go to the Bible, I would check it out. I did that process for about 6 months. We began in June of 1992 and it was December of 1992 before I finally concluded after checking every scripture, checking it in context, I could find nothing wrong with the messages it sure sounded right. So I made a commitment, at the time I was driving long-haul trucks across the country. I said “Lord I’m stuck in the cab of this truck anyway I’m just going to turn of the CB, I’m going to turn off the radio. If I’m in the cab of this truck I’m just going to make it my prayer closet and I will be praying.”
Sid: Now what is the difference you understood praying in tongues before why all of a sudden you were motivated?
Gary: After listening to Pastor Dave I never understood that those long periods of time spent praying in other tongues, that praying in other tongues is a revelation gift. That is one method, a very effective method where the Holy Spirit Himself you know like a teacher in college. Every hour you give Him it’s like a teacher standing at the blackboard communicating and teaching your reborn human spirit everything that Christ is in you, to you, and through you. As I began that process things that I had heard I had heard other men teach these same faith principles and things out of the Bible but the way I say it now “You know it’s hard to live on another man’s faith.” I knew the principles in my head but the problem was I couldn’t make them work for me.
Sid: I’ll get a little sarcastic right now Lord forgive me, it’s easy to leave to live on another man’s faith if you’re teaching it and giving up an offering.
Sid: However, where the rubber meets the road it doesn’t work.
Gary: That was the problem, in fact it’s amazing you say that because in the 80’s, again the late 80’s before I started at Pastor Dave’s…
Sid: Hmm. Hm.
Gary: …I had learned all of those faith principles. I’m a good student, I had studied and learned. I did teach those principles (laughing) I taught them just as well as the men that I learned them from. People would ask me questions I didn’t have to go back and check any notes I knew there message. I knew it in my head but I could not make it work for me, and the big problem there is I really didn’t know the Lord very well. I knew the message but I didn’t know the Lord not in an intimate way, not in a day by day relationship way…
Sid: Out of curiosity with the hours, and you were a truck driver, so you could devote long periods of time praying in unknown tongues. Did your intimacy with God increase as a result of that?
Gary: Oh! My whole world is different, everything about our life is different. All of my… how do I say this, I have no agendas of Gary Carpenter anymore. All of those kind of aspirations during that process died. The more time you spend communicating and fellowshipping with the Holy Spirit that the more intimate relationship He develops between you and the Lord.